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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview With Joel Wit

Aired May 11, 2003 - 10:28   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: With combat in Iraq now over the United States may be devoting more attention to another ongoing concern, North Korea's suspected nuclear weapons program. The communist country's leader Kim Jong Il remains a puzzling figure to the western world.
CNN's David Ensor has a closer look for us now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Kim Jong Il, U.S. experts in and out of governments say, is one of the strangest leaders on earth. Son of the founder of a Stalinist state he was groomed from birth for absolute power.

JERROLD POST, FMR. CIA ANALYST: He was told from very early on that he was the Son of God.

ENSOR: Pampered all his life the 61-year-old Kim Jong Il lives, experts say, in a seven-story pleasure palace.

POST: He has recruited at the junior high school level, attractive young women to become members of what are called the Joy Brigades, to be providing pleasure and relaxation to the hard-working officials of the inner circle.

ENSOR: In the late '70s, U.S. officials say, Kim ordered the kidnapping of South Korean movie star, Choe Un-Hui and her director husband. Madam Choe later described her first meeting with the portly 5'2 inch Kim.

POST: When he first met her heed to her, well, Madam Choe, you must be surprised to see that I resemble the droppings of a midget. So, there are a lot of insecurities, not just politically but personally.

ENSOR: But U.S. officials and former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, who spent 12 hours with the man in 2000, say, though he may be insecure; Kim Jong Il is definitely not crazy.

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FMR. SECRETARY OF STATE: It was possible to talk with him. He is not a nut. I think that's the main kind of point; but never forgetting that he is ruthless and that he knows that he's running a country that is on the verge of economic disaster.

ENSOR: Kim took Albright to a stadium to see 100,000 people dance in unison.

ALBRIGHT: He said he would have loved to have been a movie director. He knew a lot about American movies and had suggestions for Oscar nominations. And you know, he also liked American sports. He liked Michael Jordan.

ENSOR: He is also a leader who has allowed literally million was his own countrymen to starve to death. One reason President Bush has expressed, in his words, "loathing" for Kim and dropped the dialogue Secretary Albright and President Clinton started.

ALBRIGHT: I do not think that dialogue is appeasement. and it is absolutely essential to talk to someone or a leader that you want something from. We talked to Stalin; we talked to Mao Zedong.

ENSOR (on camera): And like them, Kim Jong Il is clearly hoping to stay in power for a long time. After decades of heavy drinking, Hennessey cognac was his brand, he's recently cut back on hard liquor, though U.S. officials say he still drinks a good deal of wine and champagne.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Well, Joel Wit specializes on North Korea and nuclear weapons proliferation. A senior fellow with the International Security Program, and Joel Wit is with us to help us better understand this very eccentric leader as he's been described by so many people.

Do you think he's eccentric or just misunderstood?

JOEL WIT, CSIS: Well, I don't think he's eccentric or misunderstood. The fact is Kim Jong Il from a very early stage of his life was brought up to take over for his father. and so he has a lot of experience in governing his country. He's ruthless, he's spoiled, but he's not crazy.

WHITFIELD: In fact, former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright says he is not crazy at all. He knows exactly what he's doing. So given that common knowledge among so many, then, particularly inside Washington, how does Washington negotiate with such an individual?

WIT: Well, I don't think it's that complicated, really. What we need to do is to have a sustained dialogue with North Korea, understanding that during that dialogue North Korea's going to make many threat. It may take threatening moves that we think are not sincere, but that's just part of their normal behavior. And I think we'll we really have to learn to live with that and secure what our objectives are. Which is an end to their nuclear weapons program and the building of a better relationship between North Korea and in surrounding countries.

WHITFIELD: The cultural differences between the Americans and North Koreans are vast. So given that common knowledge, who needs to be part of these negotiations? Surely, you can't have any successful talks between just the Americans and North Korea. Who needs to be there in order to help to bring together these cultural differences?

WIT: Well, I don't think it's a question of cultural differences. That's not really yet administration wants other countries sitting at the table. The reason yet Bush administration wants other countries at the table, because if they're part of the negotiation then they will feel some stake in the final outcome and will help support a positive outcome. But if there is a negative outcome, such as it's the negotiations break down, those other countries will be on our side if that happens.

WHITFIELD: You need witnesses. Now, there have been conflicting reports on whether indeed North Korea's reprocessing spent plutonium at its nuclear plants. What's your belief? Is it a go or not?

WIT: Well, you know I don't know any more than the U.S. intelligence community. I think the point here is that they may have started testing before they begin production of plutonium. But we're at the very initial stage of what might be happening and as a result, because our intelligence is not that good, it's very unclear what's happening at the moment.

WHITFIELD: Well, what's the likelihood, if intelligence is right that that restarting has taken plan, what's your feeling as to whether there will be any kind of backdoor supplying that North Korea may be providing for any other country?

WIT: Well, I think that's a definite danger here and the problem is that the Clinton administration set a red line for North Korea. That it could not reprocess and the administration was willing to back that up and to try to prevent North Korea from building more nuclear material.

This administration has not set a clear red line and the problem is that once material is produced, it's going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible to tell what North Korea's doing with that material. It may be keeping it for itself or it may be throwing it overseas and we may never know.

WHITFIELD: Joel Wit, thank you very much.

WIT: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired May 11, 2003 - 10:28   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: With combat in Iraq now over the United States may be devoting more attention to another ongoing concern, North Korea's suspected nuclear weapons program. The communist country's leader Kim Jong Il remains a puzzling figure to the western world.
CNN's David Ensor has a closer look for us now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Kim Jong Il, U.S. experts in and out of governments say, is one of the strangest leaders on earth. Son of the founder of a Stalinist state he was groomed from birth for absolute power.

JERROLD POST, FMR. CIA ANALYST: He was told from very early on that he was the Son of God.

ENSOR: Pampered all his life the 61-year-old Kim Jong Il lives, experts say, in a seven-story pleasure palace.

POST: He has recruited at the junior high school level, attractive young women to become members of what are called the Joy Brigades, to be providing pleasure and relaxation to the hard-working officials of the inner circle.

ENSOR: In the late '70s, U.S. officials say, Kim ordered the kidnapping of South Korean movie star, Choe Un-Hui and her director husband. Madam Choe later described her first meeting with the portly 5'2 inch Kim.

POST: When he first met her heed to her, well, Madam Choe, you must be surprised to see that I resemble the droppings of a midget. So, there are a lot of insecurities, not just politically but personally.

ENSOR: But U.S. officials and former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, who spent 12 hours with the man in 2000, say, though he may be insecure; Kim Jong Il is definitely not crazy.

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FMR. SECRETARY OF STATE: It was possible to talk with him. He is not a nut. I think that's the main kind of point; but never forgetting that he is ruthless and that he knows that he's running a country that is on the verge of economic disaster.

ENSOR: Kim took Albright to a stadium to see 100,000 people dance in unison.

ALBRIGHT: He said he would have loved to have been a movie director. He knew a lot about American movies and had suggestions for Oscar nominations. And you know, he also liked American sports. He liked Michael Jordan.

ENSOR: He is also a leader who has allowed literally million was his own countrymen to starve to death. One reason President Bush has expressed, in his words, "loathing" for Kim and dropped the dialogue Secretary Albright and President Clinton started.

ALBRIGHT: I do not think that dialogue is appeasement. and it is absolutely essential to talk to someone or a leader that you want something from. We talked to Stalin; we talked to Mao Zedong.

ENSOR (on camera): And like them, Kim Jong Il is clearly hoping to stay in power for a long time. After decades of heavy drinking, Hennessey cognac was his brand, he's recently cut back on hard liquor, though U.S. officials say he still drinks a good deal of wine and champagne.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Well, Joel Wit specializes on North Korea and nuclear weapons proliferation. A senior fellow with the International Security Program, and Joel Wit is with us to help us better understand this very eccentric leader as he's been described by so many people.

Do you think he's eccentric or just misunderstood?

JOEL WIT, CSIS: Well, I don't think he's eccentric or misunderstood. The fact is Kim Jong Il from a very early stage of his life was brought up to take over for his father. and so he has a lot of experience in governing his country. He's ruthless, he's spoiled, but he's not crazy.

WHITFIELD: In fact, former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright says he is not crazy at all. He knows exactly what he's doing. So given that common knowledge among so many, then, particularly inside Washington, how does Washington negotiate with such an individual?

WIT: Well, I don't think it's that complicated, really. What we need to do is to have a sustained dialogue with North Korea, understanding that during that dialogue North Korea's going to make many threat. It may take threatening moves that we think are not sincere, but that's just part of their normal behavior. And I think we'll we really have to learn to live with that and secure what our objectives are. Which is an end to their nuclear weapons program and the building of a better relationship between North Korea and in surrounding countries.

WHITFIELD: The cultural differences between the Americans and North Koreans are vast. So given that common knowledge, who needs to be part of these negotiations? Surely, you can't have any successful talks between just the Americans and North Korea. Who needs to be there in order to help to bring together these cultural differences?

WIT: Well, I don't think it's a question of cultural differences. That's not really yet administration wants other countries sitting at the table. The reason yet Bush administration wants other countries at the table, because if they're part of the negotiation then they will feel some stake in the final outcome and will help support a positive outcome. But if there is a negative outcome, such as it's the negotiations break down, those other countries will be on our side if that happens.

WHITFIELD: You need witnesses. Now, there have been conflicting reports on whether indeed North Korea's reprocessing spent plutonium at its nuclear plants. What's your belief? Is it a go or not?

WIT: Well, you know I don't know any more than the U.S. intelligence community. I think the point here is that they may have started testing before they begin production of plutonium. But we're at the very initial stage of what might be happening and as a result, because our intelligence is not that good, it's very unclear what's happening at the moment.

WHITFIELD: Well, what's the likelihood, if intelligence is right that that restarting has taken plan, what's your feeling as to whether there will be any kind of backdoor supplying that North Korea may be providing for any other country?

WIT: Well, I think that's a definite danger here and the problem is that the Clinton administration set a red line for North Korea. That it could not reprocess and the administration was willing to back that up and to try to prevent North Korea from building more nuclear material.

This administration has not set a clear red line and the problem is that once material is produced, it's going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible to tell what North Korea's doing with that material. It may be keeping it for itself or it may be throwing it overseas and we may never know.

WHITFIELD: Joel Wit, thank you very much.

WIT: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com