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CNN Sunday Morning
Interview With Paul Enzinna, Diane Clements
Aired May 18, 2003 - 10:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Many states have had taken a second look at their inmates on death row after some were found to be wrongly convicted. But what about the wrongly executed?
Roger Coleman, claiming he was innocent, was executed 11 years ago in Virginia for raping and murdering his sister-in-law. Coleman supporters pushed for remaining DNA samples to be tested so that the case could be settled. Virginia Governor Mark Warner has not made a decision on whether to allow the test.
Before Coleman's execution he spoke to the media about the risks of the death penalty.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROGER COLEMAN, EXECUTED IN 1992: I expect to be cleared. My attorneys are informing me they will continue to work for my innocence and I believe that that will eventually happen. And so I hope that it goes on show the American people how wrong the death penalty is that an innocent man could be executed and that the risks are just not worth having.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Joining us to talk about DNA and the death penalty, from our Washington bureau this morning, attorney Paul Enzinna and from Houston, Diane Clements, president of the death penalty advocacy group, Justice for All. Thank you to both of you for being here this morning.
What's the point -- I'd like to hear from both of you -- to bringing this case back to light after the prisoner has been executed? Paul, why don't we start with you?
PAUL ENZINNA, ATTORNEY: Well, let me address that. First of all, there are a couple of things that could come out of this, positive developments. For example, we can find out the truth about the Coleman case, for one thing.
Second, if Mr. Coleman did not commit this murder then the person who did commit the murder is presumably still out there and there have been cases where DNA testing has not only exonerated an inmate, but also identified the actual perpetrator.
But I think the more interesting question is the opposite question and that is why not do the testing? COLLINS: Diane, why not?
DIANE CLEMENTS, JUSTICE FOR ALL: Well, because clearly they don't have standing and if they had a case -- You can look at this fairly skeptically and I know that this is a smart law firm that has done this work. So why wouldn't they have someone who had standing file the suit originally?
And you might say, well, maybe they really don't want the test done because creating a specter of innocence is sometimes more effective for those who oppose the death penalty, than actually doing the testing and determining once again, through DNA analysis, that Roger Coleman is the guilty party.
COLLINS: So you think there's a different agenda here, Diane?
CLEMENTS: Well, I do believe there is clearly an agenda here and I don't think it's different. I think we all know what the agenda is.
COLLINS: Paul?
ENZINNA: Well, let me address that. The hidden agenda argument is a canard that's been thrown at us for a long time.
First of all, my client in this case, the Centurion Ministries, and Centurion Ministries is not an anti-death penalty group. What Centurion Ministries does is it helps inmates prove their innocence and get them exonerated. It also tries to help correct flaws in the system that lead to wrongful executions.
Centurion represented Roger Coleman before his execution back in 1988. They went down to Grundy, Virginia. They looked at the evidence and their executive director waded through the stream he was supposed to have waded through.
And they promised Roger Coleman they'd continue to work to prove his innocence and that's what Centurion is doing here.
COLLINS: But Paul, let me just ask you, is this about this case or is this about the system itself?
ENZINNA: Well, I think it's about both Heidi. You know, the interesting question is this, if you take the hidden agenda argument at face value, what's it really saying?
The death penalty is one of those issues that people disagree about. People disagree about issues all the time. People like Miss Clements presumably believe in good faith that the death penalty is a good thing. Other people believe it's not.
Now if your argument requires the suppression of the truth about the death penalty, how bad can that argument be?
CLEMENTS: Well, you know, that argument is not valid because there is not a suppression of the truth. This case has been fully vetted through the courts. And the federal judge that looked at the new innocence issues said that there was -- his word, no colorful (ph) evidence of innocence. He said that he was more guilty than what was determined at the original trial.
So there's no suppression of evidence and there's -- the debate is do you want to do the test or not because do you really want to learn and why wouldn't you have someone file who did have standing?
So this isn't about the guilt of Roger Coleman, it's about creating the specter of an innocent man who has been executed, which in turn, diminishes the public's support for the death penalty. It has nothing to do with that.
COLLINS: Let's go one step further, Diane. If, in fact, the new tests show that Coleman is innocent, what does that mean overall for death penalty advocates in future cases?
CLEMENTS: Well, I don't believe that the tests will show that he is innocent because the tests showed already that he is the guilty person. So I don't believe it would show that.
And it's want about doing the test. It's about do we have law and order? Do we have a process? And, yes, we do. And Centurion Ministries wants to subvert the process. They've gone through it and they've been denied.
COLLINS: And Paul, is there a comparison to be made here, at least something to talk about, with the governor of Illinois back in January, Governor George Ryan, and his offering of commuted sentences for more than 100 Death Row inmates? Is that another example of what you have said is fallacy of the system?
ENZINNA: Well, I'm not sure that there's a comparison there, but I want to address what Miss Clements said because it's just so wrong on so many levels.
First of all, with respect to the DNA testing, she's just wrong about what happened in 1990. The DNA testing in 1990 did not prove that Roger Coleman committed this crime. What the DNA testing in 1990 showed that was two men were involved in this crime, which is contrary to what the state proved at trial.
Now second, the federal judge that she's speaking of, who made those comments, was speaking at a time when DNA testing was not as advanced as it is today. Today DNA testing can identify with precision whether or not that DNA belongs to Roger Coleman. At that time it could not.
Now as far as the standing argument, Centurion Ministries had standing in this case. We had standing under Virginia law to ask the courts to give us that evidence, and the courts refused to give us the evidence.
And this was not the first time that someone had gone into Virginia and tried to get post-execution testing. In fact, in 1997 in the case of Joseph O'Dell, the state of Virginia burned evidence rather than allow it to be tested. So the question... COLLINS: Diane, let me ask you if you might possibly know any reaction or words from Wanda McCoy's family about how they're feeling about all of this.
CLEMENTS: I have not been in contact with Wanda McCoy's family. And I'm certain that they're devastated because I'm sure they believe that Roger Coleman is the guilty party. You know, we know that Wanda McCoy only opened the door to three people: her husband, Roger McCoy, and one other individual and they have all been excluded.
Roger Coleman was one-half of 1 percent -- one half of 1 percent is what the DNA identified for possible suspects and Roger Coleman is in that.
Roger Coleman had the opportunity. Roger Coleman's blood type was at the crime scene. Very rare blood type.
COLLINS: Unfortunately they will have to be the last word this morning. Paul Enzinna and Diane Clements, we appreciate your time this morning and your insights on this issue. Thank you so much.
ENZINNA: Thank you.
CLEMENTS: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 18, 2003 - 10:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Many states have had taken a second look at their inmates on death row after some were found to be wrongly convicted. But what about the wrongly executed?
Roger Coleman, claiming he was innocent, was executed 11 years ago in Virginia for raping and murdering his sister-in-law. Coleman supporters pushed for remaining DNA samples to be tested so that the case could be settled. Virginia Governor Mark Warner has not made a decision on whether to allow the test.
Before Coleman's execution he spoke to the media about the risks of the death penalty.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROGER COLEMAN, EXECUTED IN 1992: I expect to be cleared. My attorneys are informing me they will continue to work for my innocence and I believe that that will eventually happen. And so I hope that it goes on show the American people how wrong the death penalty is that an innocent man could be executed and that the risks are just not worth having.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Joining us to talk about DNA and the death penalty, from our Washington bureau this morning, attorney Paul Enzinna and from Houston, Diane Clements, president of the death penalty advocacy group, Justice for All. Thank you to both of you for being here this morning.
What's the point -- I'd like to hear from both of you -- to bringing this case back to light after the prisoner has been executed? Paul, why don't we start with you?
PAUL ENZINNA, ATTORNEY: Well, let me address that. First of all, there are a couple of things that could come out of this, positive developments. For example, we can find out the truth about the Coleman case, for one thing.
Second, if Mr. Coleman did not commit this murder then the person who did commit the murder is presumably still out there and there have been cases where DNA testing has not only exonerated an inmate, but also identified the actual perpetrator.
But I think the more interesting question is the opposite question and that is why not do the testing? COLLINS: Diane, why not?
DIANE CLEMENTS, JUSTICE FOR ALL: Well, because clearly they don't have standing and if they had a case -- You can look at this fairly skeptically and I know that this is a smart law firm that has done this work. So why wouldn't they have someone who had standing file the suit originally?
And you might say, well, maybe they really don't want the test done because creating a specter of innocence is sometimes more effective for those who oppose the death penalty, than actually doing the testing and determining once again, through DNA analysis, that Roger Coleman is the guilty party.
COLLINS: So you think there's a different agenda here, Diane?
CLEMENTS: Well, I do believe there is clearly an agenda here and I don't think it's different. I think we all know what the agenda is.
COLLINS: Paul?
ENZINNA: Well, let me address that. The hidden agenda argument is a canard that's been thrown at us for a long time.
First of all, my client in this case, the Centurion Ministries, and Centurion Ministries is not an anti-death penalty group. What Centurion Ministries does is it helps inmates prove their innocence and get them exonerated. It also tries to help correct flaws in the system that lead to wrongful executions.
Centurion represented Roger Coleman before his execution back in 1988. They went down to Grundy, Virginia. They looked at the evidence and their executive director waded through the stream he was supposed to have waded through.
And they promised Roger Coleman they'd continue to work to prove his innocence and that's what Centurion is doing here.
COLLINS: But Paul, let me just ask you, is this about this case or is this about the system itself?
ENZINNA: Well, I think it's about both Heidi. You know, the interesting question is this, if you take the hidden agenda argument at face value, what's it really saying?
The death penalty is one of those issues that people disagree about. People disagree about issues all the time. People like Miss Clements presumably believe in good faith that the death penalty is a good thing. Other people believe it's not.
Now if your argument requires the suppression of the truth about the death penalty, how bad can that argument be?
CLEMENTS: Well, you know, that argument is not valid because there is not a suppression of the truth. This case has been fully vetted through the courts. And the federal judge that looked at the new innocence issues said that there was -- his word, no colorful (ph) evidence of innocence. He said that he was more guilty than what was determined at the original trial.
So there's no suppression of evidence and there's -- the debate is do you want to do the test or not because do you really want to learn and why wouldn't you have someone file who did have standing?
So this isn't about the guilt of Roger Coleman, it's about creating the specter of an innocent man who has been executed, which in turn, diminishes the public's support for the death penalty. It has nothing to do with that.
COLLINS: Let's go one step further, Diane. If, in fact, the new tests show that Coleman is innocent, what does that mean overall for death penalty advocates in future cases?
CLEMENTS: Well, I don't believe that the tests will show that he is innocent because the tests showed already that he is the guilty person. So I don't believe it would show that.
And it's want about doing the test. It's about do we have law and order? Do we have a process? And, yes, we do. And Centurion Ministries wants to subvert the process. They've gone through it and they've been denied.
COLLINS: And Paul, is there a comparison to be made here, at least something to talk about, with the governor of Illinois back in January, Governor George Ryan, and his offering of commuted sentences for more than 100 Death Row inmates? Is that another example of what you have said is fallacy of the system?
ENZINNA: Well, I'm not sure that there's a comparison there, but I want to address what Miss Clements said because it's just so wrong on so many levels.
First of all, with respect to the DNA testing, she's just wrong about what happened in 1990. The DNA testing in 1990 did not prove that Roger Coleman committed this crime. What the DNA testing in 1990 showed that was two men were involved in this crime, which is contrary to what the state proved at trial.
Now second, the federal judge that she's speaking of, who made those comments, was speaking at a time when DNA testing was not as advanced as it is today. Today DNA testing can identify with precision whether or not that DNA belongs to Roger Coleman. At that time it could not.
Now as far as the standing argument, Centurion Ministries had standing in this case. We had standing under Virginia law to ask the courts to give us that evidence, and the courts refused to give us the evidence.
And this was not the first time that someone had gone into Virginia and tried to get post-execution testing. In fact, in 1997 in the case of Joseph O'Dell, the state of Virginia burned evidence rather than allow it to be tested. So the question... COLLINS: Diane, let me ask you if you might possibly know any reaction or words from Wanda McCoy's family about how they're feeling about all of this.
CLEMENTS: I have not been in contact with Wanda McCoy's family. And I'm certain that they're devastated because I'm sure they believe that Roger Coleman is the guilty party. You know, we know that Wanda McCoy only opened the door to three people: her husband, Roger McCoy, and one other individual and they have all been excluded.
Roger Coleman was one-half of 1 percent -- one half of 1 percent is what the DNA identified for possible suspects and Roger Coleman is in that.
Roger Coleman had the opportunity. Roger Coleman's blood type was at the crime scene. Very rare blood type.
COLLINS: Unfortunately they will have to be the last word this morning. Paul Enzinna and Diane Clements, we appreciate your time this morning and your insights on this issue. Thank you so much.
ENZINNA: Thank you.
CLEMENTS: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
