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CNN Sunday Morning
Interviews With Daniel Ayalon, Ghassan Khatid
Aired May 25, 2003 - 07:01 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: Our top story this morning, a divided Israeli cabinet meeting at this hour to decide whether or not to accept the road map for Mideast peace. The move comes after Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told Washington on Friday, he's prepared to accepts outlined in the plan.
Let's go to Jerusalem with CNN's Mike Hanna for the latest on that cabinet meeting.
Good morning to you, Mike.
MIKE HANNA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello there, Martin.
Well, it's 2 o'clock in the afternoon Jerusalem time. And the cabinet had been meeting throughout the morning. Ariel Sharon has accepted that road map. Now he has to convince his government, his entire government, to do likewise.
There are 23 members of this government, including Sharon, himself. And observers are saying the vote could be very close indeed although most expect agreement to be reached on implementing the road map as outlined by President Bush. Ariel Sharon, himself, has been conducting talks with individual ministers and with his Likud Party, as a group in recent days, and indeed, this morning.
Israel's largest newspaper, published today, he's made some startling statements, startling in terms of Sharon himself. Among these statements he made was: The time has come, he said, to divide this piece of land between us and the Palestinians.
And he continued, No one is going to teach me about the strips of land that we will be asked to leave, but he added, you have to realistic about what we can and cannot continue to hold.
So, an absolutely critical cabinet meeting in the course of the day. There are regular cabinet meetings scheduled on Sundays but this is certainly and extraordinary even, one in which the Sharon government will decide whether or not to accept the concept of the establishment of a Palestinian state within three years -- Martin.
SAVIDGE: Mike, what are the people of Israeli saying about all this? Do they consider this a pivotal moment?
HANNA: Yes, certainly. As reflected through the media, it is described as one of the most critical government decisions ever taken. Some ministers have said that this is even greater potentially disastrous, this is a right wing minister, than the Oslo Peace Accords. So, certainly within the Israeli public it is seen as a pivotal moment, a moment at which perhaps an end or a process can re- begin, moving away from the violence which has been the absolutely mark of the past three years, toward some kind of negotiation resolution.
This being said, though, a degree of skepticism on all sides, Israeli and Palestinian, as to whether in fact even the road map being accepted, its implementation will follow through. Certainly many hurdles seen in the implementation, but at this stage the intention of the U.S., in particular, is simply to get the road map in place.
The Palestinians have accepted it. Awaiting, now Israeli acceptance. And then to deal with the issues as they arise, that to have on the table a working and operative peace plan.
SAVIDGE: History being made on this very day. Mike Hanna in Jerusalem, thanks very much -- Andrea.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN ANCHOR: Now, let's get reaction to today's critical move by the Israeli cabinet. From an Israeli and a Palestinian official. We begin with Daniel Ayalon, the Israeli ambassador to the United States.
Good morning, Mr. Ambassador.
DANIEL AYALON, ISRAELI AMB. TO U.S.: Good morning.
KOPPEL: We know that some people have suggested that Prime Minister Sharon chose his words very carefully the other day when he said that he agreed to accept steps of the road map for peace, but that he hasn't actually, this is their interpretation, agree to accept the road map in its entirety. Are they splitting hairs?
AYALON: No, Israel really wants peace. Prime Minister Sharon wants peace. Democracies want peace. Like the United States we thrive on peace. And all we need is to find a partner. We made peace with Egypt and with Jordan when we had a true partner committed to peace. And this is what we are interested with.
Once we received assurances from the United States, our best friend and ally, about the road map, we are ready to accept it. I think that the cabinet meeting that takes place as we speak will vote in favor of this and we will embark on the road for peace and negotiations. This is the time to do it, but it has to be peace with security and with no terrorism.
KOPPEL: It was no secret that the Israeli government had at least a dozen reservations to the road map, just a few days ago. What happened to those reservations? Those were the roadblocks, so to speak, preventing Prime Minister Sharon from accepting the road map in the first place?
AYALON: Yes, and we still do. And these are issues of principle, of security. When we talk about security reform on the Palestinian side, we want to make sure that this is a real reform, not just cosmetic changes. For instance, not just cease fire with organizations like al Qaeda type, Hamas, Jihad, al-Aqsa Brigade, but dismantling them altogether.
When we talk about political reform, again, not just new faces, but new institutions. We wanted to make sure that this is very clear in the road map. Once received the assurances that the United States will address this concern of us fully and seriously, we can move ahead.
KOPPEL: Is Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas a partner for Israel, someone that Israel is prepared to work hand in hand with?
AYALON: We hope so very much. We would like to have a partner which is effective and which can rule and govern and make the painful steps to make peace. We Israelis are ready to make painful concessions as Prime Minister Sharon said this morning.
We would like to see a Palestinian partner also who makes painful concessions. Who really fights terror in a consistent and a sustainable who can face the renegade organizations among the Palestinian society. And also who can make painful concessions on their side. It remains to be seen.
You know, since Abu Mazen was appointed there was an increase in terrorism by 25 percent. We have not seen real action yet. No terrorist has been arrested. No collection of illegal weapons. Let's hope that with this move forward by the Israeli government it will give them more incentive to do that. But really all the process will be judged on performance and result.
KOPPEL: Ambassador Ayalon, unfortunately, we have run out of time, Sir. But I thank you for joining us here this morning.
AYALON: You're welcome, Andrea.
KOPPEL: Now, let's get Palestinian reaction to today's Israeli cabinet meeting. Ghassan Khatid is the minister of labor in the Palestinian cabinet. He joins us from Ramallah.
Good morning to you, sir.
GHASSAN KHATID, PALESTINIAN CABINET MINISTER: Good morning.
KOPPEL: You just Ambassador Ayalon refer to the increase, the uptick in terrorist acts against Israelis. Is this something that the new prime minister is capable of stopping?
KHATID: Well, I think we have to look at events on the two sides, because there has been an increase in the vicious circle of violence. And there is an increase in Israeli violence (UNINTELLIGIBLE) against Palestinians. Which are (UNINTELLIGIBLE) by Palestinian violent reactions.
The new Palestinian cabinet is capable of fulfilling its obligations to the road map, including ending Palestinian violent reactions to the occupation. But this (UNINTELLIGIBLE) simultaneous fulfillment of the Israeli obligations in the road map, including solving the Israeli violence, the Israeli illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories, the demolition of houses, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of land, the extension of Israeli settlements, et cetera.
KOPPEL: Mr. Khatid, I'm going to interrupt you sir for just one moment, please.
KHATID: Yes?
KOPPEL: We're having a little trouble with our audio; we're going take a break. And be right back after this to resume our interview with Ghassan Khatid. Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
KOPPEL: Now let's get Palestinian reaction to today's Israeli cabinet meeting, Ghassan Khatid is a very patient minister of labor in the Palestinian cabinet.
Thank you, sir, for hanging around with us. I'd like to pick up on one of our earlier points and that is, is Prime Minister Abbas capable of ending the terrorism that has be perpetrated by Hamas and other extremist Palestinian groups?
KHATID: We believe that there are two reasons for the ongoing Palestinian violence. Number one, it is a reaction to the violent Israeli occupation and I think as long as there is violent occupation there is going to be, whether we like it or not, Palestinian reactions, including violent reactions.
Number two, the violence here is the result of the lack of any peace process, of any negotiations, of any process of the kind that can reassure the Palestinian public of the possible peaceful end of the Israeli occupation.
Now, it Israel will accept this road map and accept the resumption of the negotiations on this road map, which stipulates, literally, that it aims among other things to end the Israeli occupation that started in 1967. And if Israeli will fulfill its obligations to the road map, which includes, literally, ending the Israeli assassinations and violence, and reoccupation and settlement expansion, and demolition of houses and roadblocks, and what have you.
In such situations I think the Palestinian Authority will definitely be able to fulfill it's obligations to the road map, including ending the Palestinian violence.
KOPPEL: Prime Minister Abbas met with some of the leadership of Hamas, last week. What did he tell them? Did he get any assurances from them that they will end the terrorism against Israel?
KHATID: He told him about the Palestinian obligations to the road map, in details, and as frank as possible. And he told them that he is insisting to make sure that there is only one authority in Palestinian, which is the Palestinian Authority. And that everybody in the spirit of democracy has to respect the obligations of the Palestinian Authority.
And in response, they asked him one major question, which he is not able yet to answer. Are the Israelis going to be also committed to their obligations to the road map? I think this answer has a very clear message, which is, if the Israelis will respect their obligations to the road map then, probably, there is a chance for these groups to be cooperative with this new Palestinian government.
But whether it is cooperative or not, I think the Palestinian Authority, with the new conditions that will prevail after the Israeli and acceptance and the beginning of implementing the road map, I think the Palestinian Authority will be able definitely to make a difference in regarding the behavior of the Palestinian people.
KOPPEL: We have just a few remaining seconds. Does Prime Minister Abbas have the complete support of the Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Who is running the show in the territories?
Unfortunately, I think we've lost our signal with Ghassan Khatid, the Palestinian minister of labor, but we thank him for joining us today from the Palestinian territories.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 25, 2003 - 07:01 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: Our top story this morning, a divided Israeli cabinet meeting at this hour to decide whether or not to accept the road map for Mideast peace. The move comes after Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told Washington on Friday, he's prepared to accepts outlined in the plan.
Let's go to Jerusalem with CNN's Mike Hanna for the latest on that cabinet meeting.
Good morning to you, Mike.
MIKE HANNA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello there, Martin.
Well, it's 2 o'clock in the afternoon Jerusalem time. And the cabinet had been meeting throughout the morning. Ariel Sharon has accepted that road map. Now he has to convince his government, his entire government, to do likewise.
There are 23 members of this government, including Sharon, himself. And observers are saying the vote could be very close indeed although most expect agreement to be reached on implementing the road map as outlined by President Bush. Ariel Sharon, himself, has been conducting talks with individual ministers and with his Likud Party, as a group in recent days, and indeed, this morning.
Israel's largest newspaper, published today, he's made some startling statements, startling in terms of Sharon himself. Among these statements he made was: The time has come, he said, to divide this piece of land between us and the Palestinians.
And he continued, No one is going to teach me about the strips of land that we will be asked to leave, but he added, you have to realistic about what we can and cannot continue to hold.
So, an absolutely critical cabinet meeting in the course of the day. There are regular cabinet meetings scheduled on Sundays but this is certainly and extraordinary even, one in which the Sharon government will decide whether or not to accept the concept of the establishment of a Palestinian state within three years -- Martin.
SAVIDGE: Mike, what are the people of Israeli saying about all this? Do they consider this a pivotal moment?
HANNA: Yes, certainly. As reflected through the media, it is described as one of the most critical government decisions ever taken. Some ministers have said that this is even greater potentially disastrous, this is a right wing minister, than the Oslo Peace Accords. So, certainly within the Israeli public it is seen as a pivotal moment, a moment at which perhaps an end or a process can re- begin, moving away from the violence which has been the absolutely mark of the past three years, toward some kind of negotiation resolution.
This being said, though, a degree of skepticism on all sides, Israeli and Palestinian, as to whether in fact even the road map being accepted, its implementation will follow through. Certainly many hurdles seen in the implementation, but at this stage the intention of the U.S., in particular, is simply to get the road map in place.
The Palestinians have accepted it. Awaiting, now Israeli acceptance. And then to deal with the issues as they arise, that to have on the table a working and operative peace plan.
SAVIDGE: History being made on this very day. Mike Hanna in Jerusalem, thanks very much -- Andrea.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN ANCHOR: Now, let's get reaction to today's critical move by the Israeli cabinet. From an Israeli and a Palestinian official. We begin with Daniel Ayalon, the Israeli ambassador to the United States.
Good morning, Mr. Ambassador.
DANIEL AYALON, ISRAELI AMB. TO U.S.: Good morning.
KOPPEL: We know that some people have suggested that Prime Minister Sharon chose his words very carefully the other day when he said that he agreed to accept steps of the road map for peace, but that he hasn't actually, this is their interpretation, agree to accept the road map in its entirety. Are they splitting hairs?
AYALON: No, Israel really wants peace. Prime Minister Sharon wants peace. Democracies want peace. Like the United States we thrive on peace. And all we need is to find a partner. We made peace with Egypt and with Jordan when we had a true partner committed to peace. And this is what we are interested with.
Once we received assurances from the United States, our best friend and ally, about the road map, we are ready to accept it. I think that the cabinet meeting that takes place as we speak will vote in favor of this and we will embark on the road for peace and negotiations. This is the time to do it, but it has to be peace with security and with no terrorism.
KOPPEL: It was no secret that the Israeli government had at least a dozen reservations to the road map, just a few days ago. What happened to those reservations? Those were the roadblocks, so to speak, preventing Prime Minister Sharon from accepting the road map in the first place?
AYALON: Yes, and we still do. And these are issues of principle, of security. When we talk about security reform on the Palestinian side, we want to make sure that this is a real reform, not just cosmetic changes. For instance, not just cease fire with organizations like al Qaeda type, Hamas, Jihad, al-Aqsa Brigade, but dismantling them altogether.
When we talk about political reform, again, not just new faces, but new institutions. We wanted to make sure that this is very clear in the road map. Once received the assurances that the United States will address this concern of us fully and seriously, we can move ahead.
KOPPEL: Is Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas a partner for Israel, someone that Israel is prepared to work hand in hand with?
AYALON: We hope so very much. We would like to have a partner which is effective and which can rule and govern and make the painful steps to make peace. We Israelis are ready to make painful concessions as Prime Minister Sharon said this morning.
We would like to see a Palestinian partner also who makes painful concessions. Who really fights terror in a consistent and a sustainable who can face the renegade organizations among the Palestinian society. And also who can make painful concessions on their side. It remains to be seen.
You know, since Abu Mazen was appointed there was an increase in terrorism by 25 percent. We have not seen real action yet. No terrorist has been arrested. No collection of illegal weapons. Let's hope that with this move forward by the Israeli government it will give them more incentive to do that. But really all the process will be judged on performance and result.
KOPPEL: Ambassador Ayalon, unfortunately, we have run out of time, Sir. But I thank you for joining us here this morning.
AYALON: You're welcome, Andrea.
KOPPEL: Now, let's get Palestinian reaction to today's Israeli cabinet meeting. Ghassan Khatid is the minister of labor in the Palestinian cabinet. He joins us from Ramallah.
Good morning to you, sir.
GHASSAN KHATID, PALESTINIAN CABINET MINISTER: Good morning.
KOPPEL: You just Ambassador Ayalon refer to the increase, the uptick in terrorist acts against Israelis. Is this something that the new prime minister is capable of stopping?
KHATID: Well, I think we have to look at events on the two sides, because there has been an increase in the vicious circle of violence. And there is an increase in Israeli violence (UNINTELLIGIBLE) against Palestinians. Which are (UNINTELLIGIBLE) by Palestinian violent reactions.
The new Palestinian cabinet is capable of fulfilling its obligations to the road map, including ending Palestinian violent reactions to the occupation. But this (UNINTELLIGIBLE) simultaneous fulfillment of the Israeli obligations in the road map, including solving the Israeli violence, the Israeli illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories, the demolition of houses, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of land, the extension of Israeli settlements, et cetera.
KOPPEL: Mr. Khatid, I'm going to interrupt you sir for just one moment, please.
KHATID: Yes?
KOPPEL: We're having a little trouble with our audio; we're going take a break. And be right back after this to resume our interview with Ghassan Khatid. Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
KOPPEL: Now let's get Palestinian reaction to today's Israeli cabinet meeting, Ghassan Khatid is a very patient minister of labor in the Palestinian cabinet.
Thank you, sir, for hanging around with us. I'd like to pick up on one of our earlier points and that is, is Prime Minister Abbas capable of ending the terrorism that has be perpetrated by Hamas and other extremist Palestinian groups?
KHATID: We believe that there are two reasons for the ongoing Palestinian violence. Number one, it is a reaction to the violent Israeli occupation and I think as long as there is violent occupation there is going to be, whether we like it or not, Palestinian reactions, including violent reactions.
Number two, the violence here is the result of the lack of any peace process, of any negotiations, of any process of the kind that can reassure the Palestinian public of the possible peaceful end of the Israeli occupation.
Now, it Israel will accept this road map and accept the resumption of the negotiations on this road map, which stipulates, literally, that it aims among other things to end the Israeli occupation that started in 1967. And if Israeli will fulfill its obligations to the road map, which includes, literally, ending the Israeli assassinations and violence, and reoccupation and settlement expansion, and demolition of houses and roadblocks, and what have you.
In such situations I think the Palestinian Authority will definitely be able to fulfill it's obligations to the road map, including ending the Palestinian violence.
KOPPEL: Prime Minister Abbas met with some of the leadership of Hamas, last week. What did he tell them? Did he get any assurances from them that they will end the terrorism against Israel?
KHATID: He told him about the Palestinian obligations to the road map, in details, and as frank as possible. And he told them that he is insisting to make sure that there is only one authority in Palestinian, which is the Palestinian Authority. And that everybody in the spirit of democracy has to respect the obligations of the Palestinian Authority.
And in response, they asked him one major question, which he is not able yet to answer. Are the Israelis going to be also committed to their obligations to the road map? I think this answer has a very clear message, which is, if the Israelis will respect their obligations to the road map then, probably, there is a chance for these groups to be cooperative with this new Palestinian government.
But whether it is cooperative or not, I think the Palestinian Authority, with the new conditions that will prevail after the Israeli and acceptance and the beginning of implementing the road map, I think the Palestinian Authority will be able definitely to make a difference in regarding the behavior of the Palestinian people.
KOPPEL: We have just a few remaining seconds. Does Prime Minister Abbas have the complete support of the Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Who is running the show in the territories?
Unfortunately, I think we've lost our signal with Ghassan Khatid, the Palestinian minister of labor, but we thank him for joining us today from the Palestinian territories.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
