Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Sunday Morning
Interview With Ehud Barak
Aired May 25, 2003 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: There could be some heated debate today at a crucial meeting at the Israeli cabinet. The ministers are deciding whether to accept the road map for Mideast. CNN's Jerusalem bureau chief Mike Hanna joins us live with the latest. Mike, how is it going so far on this?
MIKE HANNA, CNN JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Martin, some six hours the cabinet has been in session. Every Sunday morning the cabinet meets, but this an extraordinary meeting. Being debated and decided upon is whether or not the Israeli government will accept the Road Map to Peace as outlined by U.S. President George Bush. It is a critical meeting; many observers saying one of the most critical decisions be taken since the failed Camp David talks just over three years ago.
Well, a man who was central to those talks was the then Prime Minister Ehud Barak who joins us now. Mr. Barak how important is this cabinet meeting taking place at present?
EHUD BARAK, FMR. PRIME MINISTER, ISRAEL: Oh, it is highly important. Israel basically cannot afford being held responsible for the derailing of such an important move by the president -- American president especially post-Iraq and especially where it's clear how crucial is this smooth launching of the Road Map for the very success of restabilizing Iraq and the American overall operation in the Middle East and in the eyes of the Arab world.
HANNA: Now, firstly and critically, do you think Sharon will get it through his present government?
BARAK: He will. It will take another six hours. It's important to prove in a way that it was not easy. He will get it. The ministers do understand this, but that doesn't mean that it's going to be a cakewalk down the street later on.
HANNA: Now, you in a very courageous bid in the Camp David talks with the then U.S. President Bill Clinton, talked face-to-face with Yasser Arafat. You failed on succeed in getting this peace move together. Why should it succeed now when it failed then, particularly after three years of incessant violence?
BARAK: We all have to pray that it will succeed since we've buried almost 800 people and the Palestinians buried more than 2,000 people since then. And the tragedy is around us in the streets. But it's not yet clear whether it was will be successful. It's ultimately in the hands of the Palestinians. I believe that Sharon, you know, will step up later on with certain gestures, with dismantle dismantling of illegal outposts.
I believe that we have to do it. It's long overdue. We have to do it not just because of the Palestinians, but because Israel is a state where the law rules. And we have to find ways very urgently to ease the daily life of Palestinians.
At the same time I would not expect Sharon to make any substantial moves on issues -- major issues before it becomes clear that this Palestinian new leadership is serious about implementing the reforms set by the June speech of President Bush, last June. Namely removing Arafat from any executive power. Any drop of executive power should be out of his hands otherwise there will be no peace. Secondly, to correct on Hamas and Islamic Jihad and even the al Aqsa Brigades in order to put an end to terror. Otherwise, there will be no peace.
And certainly, of course, to be able to recognize that once a Palestinian state, even a provisional one is recognized by Israel, that's the time to expect from the Palestinians and the Arab world to recognize Israel is a Jewish state. And realize the right of return will be implemented only into the Palestinian state and not into Israel.
HANNA: Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak talking to us there, giving some indication of the major problems and the major complexities facing this region should the Road Map be accepted by the Israeli government. That decision still taken at present; still expected a number of hours debate before we hear the result of that. Whether the Road Map will be accepted and whether its implementation with those hurdles still ahead will take place --Martin.
SAVIDGE: Mike Hanna joining us from Jerusalem. Thanks very much -- Andrea.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN ANCHOR: Let's find out how Palestinians are reacting. CNN's John Vause joins us from Ramallah in the West Bank.
John, we know that Prime Minister Abbas has already accepted the Road Map. How will Israeli cabinet's acceptance change thing on that end?
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Palestinian cabinet and Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas eagerly awaiting that statement coming out of Jerusalem from the Israeli cabinet. But already we know that the fact that the Road Map made it this far, the fact that Israeli Prime Minister Sharon got it all of the way back to the cabinet, that he accepted it, the Palestinians are saying it's a positive and encouraging sign. Despite those statements, which were coming from the White House on Friday about recognizing Israel's serious concerns because the Palestinians say well, they've got a number of guarantees from the White House as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GHASSAN KHATIB, CABINET MINISTER, PALESTINE: What we got from the Americans is that there is no change on the text of the Road Map, and our term of reference is the Road Map. The Road Map puts obligations on the two sides and expects the two sides to start simultaneously. Anything else will be a change in the Road Map that will be equal to having no Road Map.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: So why is this so different from all those times before? Well, what the Palestinians are saying is that the new Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas will be able to rein in those militants. He will be able to bring them under control because there's now a political structure in place; there is some hope for the Palestinian people.
But what they're saying is that it is crucial that this be implemented simultaneously as stated in the Road Map. That they'll crack down on the militants providing that Israel can withdraw from the territories and show some activity on freezing the building of settlements and the expansion of settlements on the West Bank. Providing the Israelis can do that, Mahmoud Abbas can take that to groups like Hamas, take that to Islamic Jihad and show them that things are moving; there is progress on the ground. And that everything is moving toward the Palestinian state by 2005 -- Andrea.
KOPPEL: John, we heard last hour from the Palestinian labor minister there that the Palestinians don't seem ready to want to draw the line with some of the militant groups, until the Israelis either enclosures or begins withdrawals. Is your understanding different?
VAUSE: I'm sorry, Andrea, I just didn't hear the last part of your question.
KOPPEL: Is it your understanding that the Palestinians are looking to the Israel to take steps first before they try to reign in some of the Palestinian militant groups?
VAUSE: Well, actually, Andrea, what we're hearing from the Palestinians they're quite happy that everything happens simultaneously. What they're demanding from the Israelis is they need to work this together. And there have been a lot of press reports in the last few days that one of the conditions that the Americans agreed to, that President Bush regarded as a serious concern, if you like, is the Israeli demand that the Palestinian authority here crack down on the militants before the Israelis begin withdrawing from the West Bank and the other occupied territories, before there's a freeze on those settlements.
What the Palestinians are saying is that they can do that crackdown providing that everything works in tandem. They don't want it phased in and they're not asking for Israelis to move first. They want to work together.
KOPPEL: John Vause in Ramallah, thanks very much -- Martin.
SAVIDGE: Events in Jerusalem are being closely monitor at the White House and Crawford, Texas, where President Bush is spending time at his ranch and Chris Burns is also there. He joins us live.
Hello, Chris.
CHRIS BURNS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, hello, Martin. President Bush is preparing to return back to Washington in the next few hours. This road map of his was in very deep trouble as late as Friday. And it was a final push by the president while he was meeting with the Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, he released a statement, a very, brief statement saying that he would address the concerns of the Israelis related to the road map. The Israelis have more than a dozen different reservations to that.
But without changing the road map he got Mr. Sharon to accept that road map. And of course, they're watching very closely to see whether Mr. Sharon's cabinet does accept that.
But this is all part of a well-orchestrated, diplomatic effort that has been happening in the last few days and they hope this will be the next step. And what will be the next step after that could be a summit as President Bush goes to Europe. And when he's on his way back from the G-8 Summit in the next week or so, he is thinking about meeting with Ariel Sharon and with Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister. A three-way summit possibly in the Red Sea resort in Egypt, Sharm el Shaikh where previous peace talks have taken place.
So that could be the next step now. And that is if, officials say, there are initial steps by both the Israelis and Palestinians on that Road Map -- Martin.
SAVIDGE: All right. Chris Burns joining us from Crawford, Texas, monitoring the president this weekend. Thanks very much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 25, 2003 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: There could be some heated debate today at a crucial meeting at the Israeli cabinet. The ministers are deciding whether to accept the road map for Mideast. CNN's Jerusalem bureau chief Mike Hanna joins us live with the latest. Mike, how is it going so far on this?
MIKE HANNA, CNN JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Martin, some six hours the cabinet has been in session. Every Sunday morning the cabinet meets, but this an extraordinary meeting. Being debated and decided upon is whether or not the Israeli government will accept the Road Map to Peace as outlined by U.S. President George Bush. It is a critical meeting; many observers saying one of the most critical decisions be taken since the failed Camp David talks just over three years ago.
Well, a man who was central to those talks was the then Prime Minister Ehud Barak who joins us now. Mr. Barak how important is this cabinet meeting taking place at present?
EHUD BARAK, FMR. PRIME MINISTER, ISRAEL: Oh, it is highly important. Israel basically cannot afford being held responsible for the derailing of such an important move by the president -- American president especially post-Iraq and especially where it's clear how crucial is this smooth launching of the Road Map for the very success of restabilizing Iraq and the American overall operation in the Middle East and in the eyes of the Arab world.
HANNA: Now, firstly and critically, do you think Sharon will get it through his present government?
BARAK: He will. It will take another six hours. It's important to prove in a way that it was not easy. He will get it. The ministers do understand this, but that doesn't mean that it's going to be a cakewalk down the street later on.
HANNA: Now, you in a very courageous bid in the Camp David talks with the then U.S. President Bill Clinton, talked face-to-face with Yasser Arafat. You failed on succeed in getting this peace move together. Why should it succeed now when it failed then, particularly after three years of incessant violence?
BARAK: We all have to pray that it will succeed since we've buried almost 800 people and the Palestinians buried more than 2,000 people since then. And the tragedy is around us in the streets. But it's not yet clear whether it was will be successful. It's ultimately in the hands of the Palestinians. I believe that Sharon, you know, will step up later on with certain gestures, with dismantle dismantling of illegal outposts.
I believe that we have to do it. It's long overdue. We have to do it not just because of the Palestinians, but because Israel is a state where the law rules. And we have to find ways very urgently to ease the daily life of Palestinians.
At the same time I would not expect Sharon to make any substantial moves on issues -- major issues before it becomes clear that this Palestinian new leadership is serious about implementing the reforms set by the June speech of President Bush, last June. Namely removing Arafat from any executive power. Any drop of executive power should be out of his hands otherwise there will be no peace. Secondly, to correct on Hamas and Islamic Jihad and even the al Aqsa Brigades in order to put an end to terror. Otherwise, there will be no peace.
And certainly, of course, to be able to recognize that once a Palestinian state, even a provisional one is recognized by Israel, that's the time to expect from the Palestinians and the Arab world to recognize Israel is a Jewish state. And realize the right of return will be implemented only into the Palestinian state and not into Israel.
HANNA: Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak talking to us there, giving some indication of the major problems and the major complexities facing this region should the Road Map be accepted by the Israeli government. That decision still taken at present; still expected a number of hours debate before we hear the result of that. Whether the Road Map will be accepted and whether its implementation with those hurdles still ahead will take place --Martin.
SAVIDGE: Mike Hanna joining us from Jerusalem. Thanks very much -- Andrea.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN ANCHOR: Let's find out how Palestinians are reacting. CNN's John Vause joins us from Ramallah in the West Bank.
John, we know that Prime Minister Abbas has already accepted the Road Map. How will Israeli cabinet's acceptance change thing on that end?
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Palestinian cabinet and Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas eagerly awaiting that statement coming out of Jerusalem from the Israeli cabinet. But already we know that the fact that the Road Map made it this far, the fact that Israeli Prime Minister Sharon got it all of the way back to the cabinet, that he accepted it, the Palestinians are saying it's a positive and encouraging sign. Despite those statements, which were coming from the White House on Friday about recognizing Israel's serious concerns because the Palestinians say well, they've got a number of guarantees from the White House as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GHASSAN KHATIB, CABINET MINISTER, PALESTINE: What we got from the Americans is that there is no change on the text of the Road Map, and our term of reference is the Road Map. The Road Map puts obligations on the two sides and expects the two sides to start simultaneously. Anything else will be a change in the Road Map that will be equal to having no Road Map.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: So why is this so different from all those times before? Well, what the Palestinians are saying is that the new Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas will be able to rein in those militants. He will be able to bring them under control because there's now a political structure in place; there is some hope for the Palestinian people.
But what they're saying is that it is crucial that this be implemented simultaneously as stated in the Road Map. That they'll crack down on the militants providing that Israel can withdraw from the territories and show some activity on freezing the building of settlements and the expansion of settlements on the West Bank. Providing the Israelis can do that, Mahmoud Abbas can take that to groups like Hamas, take that to Islamic Jihad and show them that things are moving; there is progress on the ground. And that everything is moving toward the Palestinian state by 2005 -- Andrea.
KOPPEL: John, we heard last hour from the Palestinian labor minister there that the Palestinians don't seem ready to want to draw the line with some of the militant groups, until the Israelis either enclosures or begins withdrawals. Is your understanding different?
VAUSE: I'm sorry, Andrea, I just didn't hear the last part of your question.
KOPPEL: Is it your understanding that the Palestinians are looking to the Israel to take steps first before they try to reign in some of the Palestinian militant groups?
VAUSE: Well, actually, Andrea, what we're hearing from the Palestinians they're quite happy that everything happens simultaneously. What they're demanding from the Israelis is they need to work this together. And there have been a lot of press reports in the last few days that one of the conditions that the Americans agreed to, that President Bush regarded as a serious concern, if you like, is the Israeli demand that the Palestinian authority here crack down on the militants before the Israelis begin withdrawing from the West Bank and the other occupied territories, before there's a freeze on those settlements.
What the Palestinians are saying is that they can do that crackdown providing that everything works in tandem. They don't want it phased in and they're not asking for Israelis to move first. They want to work together.
KOPPEL: John Vause in Ramallah, thanks very much -- Martin.
SAVIDGE: Events in Jerusalem are being closely monitor at the White House and Crawford, Texas, where President Bush is spending time at his ranch and Chris Burns is also there. He joins us live.
Hello, Chris.
CHRIS BURNS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, hello, Martin. President Bush is preparing to return back to Washington in the next few hours. This road map of his was in very deep trouble as late as Friday. And it was a final push by the president while he was meeting with the Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, he released a statement, a very, brief statement saying that he would address the concerns of the Israelis related to the road map. The Israelis have more than a dozen different reservations to that.
But without changing the road map he got Mr. Sharon to accept that road map. And of course, they're watching very closely to see whether Mr. Sharon's cabinet does accept that.
But this is all part of a well-orchestrated, diplomatic effort that has been happening in the last few days and they hope this will be the next step. And what will be the next step after that could be a summit as President Bush goes to Europe. And when he's on his way back from the G-8 Summit in the next week or so, he is thinking about meeting with Ariel Sharon and with Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister. A three-way summit possibly in the Red Sea resort in Egypt, Sharm el Shaikh where previous peace talks have taken place.
So that could be the next step now. And that is if, officials say, there are initial steps by both the Israelis and Palestinians on that Road Map -- Martin.
SAVIDGE: All right. Chris Burns joining us from Crawford, Texas, monitoring the president this weekend. Thanks very much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
