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CNN Sunday Morning
Interview With Douglas Brinkley
Aired June 22, 2003 - 07:37 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: President Bush says his road map to peace is the only way forward in the Mideast. And he's fully committed to it. The initiative represents the president's most intense diplomacy so far in the troubled history of the region.
And it's an issue other presidents have also struggled with, with varying degrees of success. For some insight into this, we want to turn our attention now to presidential historian Douglas Brinkley. He joins us this morning to kind of give us a lesson on what we need to know here about the background.
Sir, good morning. Thanks for being here.
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Thank you.
ROBERTS: All right, let's talk about -- I guess take us back when the U.S. got involved in the peace process here, I guess how imperative was it that the states become involved in trying to broker a peace deal between Palestine and Israel?
BRINKLEY: Well, like so many things, World War II was a watershed moment. Great Britain used to be the European power that, if you'd like, would worry about issues of peace and order disputes, how to deal with refugees, etcetera. But World War II changed that. And the United States became a -- the key broker in the region.
Ben-Gurion, the famous Zionist leader of the modern state of Israel, understand that during World War II and clearly sided with the United States and courted that relationship. So you cut to 1947 and '48 and President Harry Truman has a very difficult decision. Do you support this new country of Israel, which was absorbing Jews, displaced Jews from Europe and other parts of the world? Or by creating Israel, are you creating a very difficult situation, meaning you're putting a Jewish nation-state in the middle of Arab oil lands.
And Truman disregarded Secretary of State Dean Ackerson, who thought Israel should not be created. George Marshall -- General Marshall thought it should not be created, but Truman decided yes, this was the right thing to do. He embraced the Zionist movement. And the United States was the first country to officially recognize Israel in May of 1948.
Since that, we've -- every year, we almost have some road map for peace because there's violence there on a weekly basis.
ROBERTS: I was just going to say that. We keep using this phrase "road map to peace," but this has been a very long road. And this map was routed out by leaders, long before President Bush came into office. So who's had the best success so far, in trying to lead them to an amicable state?
BRINKLEY: Well, I think what we're talking about this road map process, it's really quite simply what do we do with the so-called -- it used to be called the Palestinian problem. How does this get solved? Some presidents try to ignore it. Others try to, you know, move forward on it.
I think there were some key moments. You know the PLO, Palestinian Liberation Organization, which created in 1964. and the U.S. really wanted nothing to do with them from '64 to '74 at all. They were considered a terrorist organization, somebody we didn't deal with.
But by '74, they were formally recognized as the representative body of the Palestinian people. Hence, the American presidents that had that tricky question of how do you deal with the PLO? Jimmy Carter administration for example, Carter tried very hard to deal with this problem. His -- Andrew Young was his ambassador to the United Nations. And by secretly talking to the PLO during the Carter years, Andrew Young got fired for it. You weren't allowed to do it.
At the Camp David peace accords, and Carter in 1979 brokered that magnificent peace deal between Egypt and Israel, he did not bring in a Palestinian problem. And I later asked him about that. And he has great regrets. He thought Camp David Part I would be peace between Egypt and Israel, and then Part II would be the so-called Palestinian homeland question, but I once interviewed Yasser Arafat in Gaza City. And he had said that when Carter in a speech in Massachusetts actually said the word Palestinian homeland for the first time. It sparked great cheers through Arafat and his cohorts corridors. They were in exile in that time. They weren't yet in the West Bank.
And so, it's been a very, very thorny process. The current road map to peace we're on now, I think really began with the -- George Bush senior at the Madrid Conference, when he allowed Palestinian representation in the debate. And it moved forward on the so-called road to Oslo, that famous Oslo agreement.
And we had a close moment of peace when the end of Bill Clinton's administration when, you know, Yasser Arafat rejected the principles of Camp David and saying that he wanted 100 percent or nothing. And in truth, he was given about, you know, 80 to 90 percent of what he wanted. He rejected it.
And so now it's one of the worst times to try to create a peace situation there.
ROBERTS: Douglas, is this current road map to peace, I guess, a recipe of different things that work successfully in the other administrations, although now, things are little bit different with Palestinian prime minister Mahmoud Abbas?
BRINKLEY: Well, it does seem to be, you know, after -- I would -- compared to the Gulf War, the first one, where we pushed Iraq out of Kuwait, there was a great dissent by many countries in the world of America intervention there. We were successful in our military operation. The Bush administration, the first Bush administration, then turned quickly to say let's bring the Palestinians into negotiations. They created a framework at Madrid, which led to Oslo, which started accepting the terminology of Palestinian homeland, that there was going to be a state created in the West Bank that Arafat, of course, is going to be on the return to the West Bank, and that this peace process took a major jump during the Bush administration and the early Clinton years.
Then the next stop on the road map to peace, there are many in- between, but a big one was that moment in Camp David when Clinton thought that he had agreements, but the Palestinian representatives would not give up Jerusalem. And Jerusalem is a very, very thorny question there. It's not just a matter of taking land on the West Bank or Gaza Strip and saying this will be a Palestinian state. Whether you go to -- whether -- no matter if you went to (unintelligible) into Sharon's office today, there'd be a big map of Jerusalem behind the picture of Jerusalem.
And yet, if you went into the -- what's left of Arafat's bunker in the West Bank, and had a talk with him, there would be Jerusalem behind them. Both parties claim Jerusalem as their natural city and homeland. And that is a problem that's completely irreconcilable. The United States or Israel will never give in to the thought that Jerusalem is somehow partially Palestinian controlled, hence it is -- that one issue alone is exceedingly difficult.
ROBERTS: And Douglas, here we are present day, almost present hour, the Mideast quartet supposed to take place today in Jordan with U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell there as a part of that. But meanwhile, the violence continues. Last night, the Israelis killing two Palestinians.
So how do they go forward amid all the violence that takes place while they're trying to meet and talk for peace?
BRINKLEY: I think they go forward because the people of Israel and the Palestinians want peace. Most of the people want peace. Of course, we don't get that when we turn on CNN and we see the suicide bombers regularly.
But there's been a wellspring for peace at different times. And remember, if one looks at the recent Middle East equation up -- people like Rabin gave his life for the peace process, or somebody like Anwar Sadat gave his life for the peace process.
So you have to be bold and willing to take chances. You could see that somebody like Sharon, his whole concept is the iron fist, an eye for an eye. He's been using that, but now he's starting to talk seriously in the peace process. And as soon as he does, many Israelis -- hard-liners turn on.
And the problem there seems to be that it's fanatics on both sides that are in control of the situation because they're able to light a bomb and make headlines, create mayhem, and anarchy, which can derail the peace process. The Bush administration has to not let that affect them. They have to go forward in the midst of what is sure to be more violence in the coming days, because there are people there that just hate. And hate is a hard thing to resolve in any situation.
ROBERTS: As we've all learned so far. Douglas Brinkley, presidential historian. Douglas, thanks for your insight on this. We appreciate it. I'm sure we'll be talking again soon.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired June 22, 2003 - 07:37 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: President Bush says his road map to peace is the only way forward in the Mideast. And he's fully committed to it. The initiative represents the president's most intense diplomacy so far in the troubled history of the region.
And it's an issue other presidents have also struggled with, with varying degrees of success. For some insight into this, we want to turn our attention now to presidential historian Douglas Brinkley. He joins us this morning to kind of give us a lesson on what we need to know here about the background.
Sir, good morning. Thanks for being here.
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Thank you.
ROBERTS: All right, let's talk about -- I guess take us back when the U.S. got involved in the peace process here, I guess how imperative was it that the states become involved in trying to broker a peace deal between Palestine and Israel?
BRINKLEY: Well, like so many things, World War II was a watershed moment. Great Britain used to be the European power that, if you'd like, would worry about issues of peace and order disputes, how to deal with refugees, etcetera. But World War II changed that. And the United States became a -- the key broker in the region.
Ben-Gurion, the famous Zionist leader of the modern state of Israel, understand that during World War II and clearly sided with the United States and courted that relationship. So you cut to 1947 and '48 and President Harry Truman has a very difficult decision. Do you support this new country of Israel, which was absorbing Jews, displaced Jews from Europe and other parts of the world? Or by creating Israel, are you creating a very difficult situation, meaning you're putting a Jewish nation-state in the middle of Arab oil lands.
And Truman disregarded Secretary of State Dean Ackerson, who thought Israel should not be created. George Marshall -- General Marshall thought it should not be created, but Truman decided yes, this was the right thing to do. He embraced the Zionist movement. And the United States was the first country to officially recognize Israel in May of 1948.
Since that, we've -- every year, we almost have some road map for peace because there's violence there on a weekly basis.
ROBERTS: I was just going to say that. We keep using this phrase "road map to peace," but this has been a very long road. And this map was routed out by leaders, long before President Bush came into office. So who's had the best success so far, in trying to lead them to an amicable state?
BRINKLEY: Well, I think what we're talking about this road map process, it's really quite simply what do we do with the so-called -- it used to be called the Palestinian problem. How does this get solved? Some presidents try to ignore it. Others try to, you know, move forward on it.
I think there were some key moments. You know the PLO, Palestinian Liberation Organization, which created in 1964. and the U.S. really wanted nothing to do with them from '64 to '74 at all. They were considered a terrorist organization, somebody we didn't deal with.
But by '74, they were formally recognized as the representative body of the Palestinian people. Hence, the American presidents that had that tricky question of how do you deal with the PLO? Jimmy Carter administration for example, Carter tried very hard to deal with this problem. His -- Andrew Young was his ambassador to the United Nations. And by secretly talking to the PLO during the Carter years, Andrew Young got fired for it. You weren't allowed to do it.
At the Camp David peace accords, and Carter in 1979 brokered that magnificent peace deal between Egypt and Israel, he did not bring in a Palestinian problem. And I later asked him about that. And he has great regrets. He thought Camp David Part I would be peace between Egypt and Israel, and then Part II would be the so-called Palestinian homeland question, but I once interviewed Yasser Arafat in Gaza City. And he had said that when Carter in a speech in Massachusetts actually said the word Palestinian homeland for the first time. It sparked great cheers through Arafat and his cohorts corridors. They were in exile in that time. They weren't yet in the West Bank.
And so, it's been a very, very thorny process. The current road map to peace we're on now, I think really began with the -- George Bush senior at the Madrid Conference, when he allowed Palestinian representation in the debate. And it moved forward on the so-called road to Oslo, that famous Oslo agreement.
And we had a close moment of peace when the end of Bill Clinton's administration when, you know, Yasser Arafat rejected the principles of Camp David and saying that he wanted 100 percent or nothing. And in truth, he was given about, you know, 80 to 90 percent of what he wanted. He rejected it.
And so now it's one of the worst times to try to create a peace situation there.
ROBERTS: Douglas, is this current road map to peace, I guess, a recipe of different things that work successfully in the other administrations, although now, things are little bit different with Palestinian prime minister Mahmoud Abbas?
BRINKLEY: Well, it does seem to be, you know, after -- I would -- compared to the Gulf War, the first one, where we pushed Iraq out of Kuwait, there was a great dissent by many countries in the world of America intervention there. We were successful in our military operation. The Bush administration, the first Bush administration, then turned quickly to say let's bring the Palestinians into negotiations. They created a framework at Madrid, which led to Oslo, which started accepting the terminology of Palestinian homeland, that there was going to be a state created in the West Bank that Arafat, of course, is going to be on the return to the West Bank, and that this peace process took a major jump during the Bush administration and the early Clinton years.
Then the next stop on the road map to peace, there are many in- between, but a big one was that moment in Camp David when Clinton thought that he had agreements, but the Palestinian representatives would not give up Jerusalem. And Jerusalem is a very, very thorny question there. It's not just a matter of taking land on the West Bank or Gaza Strip and saying this will be a Palestinian state. Whether you go to -- whether -- no matter if you went to (unintelligible) into Sharon's office today, there'd be a big map of Jerusalem behind the picture of Jerusalem.
And yet, if you went into the -- what's left of Arafat's bunker in the West Bank, and had a talk with him, there would be Jerusalem behind them. Both parties claim Jerusalem as their natural city and homeland. And that is a problem that's completely irreconcilable. The United States or Israel will never give in to the thought that Jerusalem is somehow partially Palestinian controlled, hence it is -- that one issue alone is exceedingly difficult.
ROBERTS: And Douglas, here we are present day, almost present hour, the Mideast quartet supposed to take place today in Jordan with U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell there as a part of that. But meanwhile, the violence continues. Last night, the Israelis killing two Palestinians.
So how do they go forward amid all the violence that takes place while they're trying to meet and talk for peace?
BRINKLEY: I think they go forward because the people of Israel and the Palestinians want peace. Most of the people want peace. Of course, we don't get that when we turn on CNN and we see the suicide bombers regularly.
But there's been a wellspring for peace at different times. And remember, if one looks at the recent Middle East equation up -- people like Rabin gave his life for the peace process, or somebody like Anwar Sadat gave his life for the peace process.
So you have to be bold and willing to take chances. You could see that somebody like Sharon, his whole concept is the iron fist, an eye for an eye. He's been using that, but now he's starting to talk seriously in the peace process. And as soon as he does, many Israelis -- hard-liners turn on.
And the problem there seems to be that it's fanatics on both sides that are in control of the situation because they're able to light a bomb and make headlines, create mayhem, and anarchy, which can derail the peace process. The Bush administration has to not let that affect them. They have to go forward in the midst of what is sure to be more violence in the coming days, because there are people there that just hate. And hate is a hard thing to resolve in any situation.
ROBERTS: As we've all learned so far. Douglas Brinkley, presidential historian. Douglas, thanks for your insight on this. We appreciate it. I'm sure we'll be talking again soon.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
