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CNN Sunday Morning
Interview With Joshua Hammer
Aired June 22, 2003 - 09:10 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOPHIA CHOI, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, we're following the Mideast peace talks in Jordan. The so-called Mideast quartet is charting the road map to peace, but now we want to turn back the clocks and talk about the history of hate in that region.
Our history teacher is "Newsweek's" Jerusalem bureau chief Joshua Hammer. He is an author of a book coming out in September on the Intifada and it's called "A Season In Bethlehem, On Holy War In A Sacred Place."
Glad you're joining us. So take us back to the beginning.
JOSHUA HAMMER, JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF, "NEWSWEEK": Hi.
CHOI: Who had what first?
HAMMER: Well, the beginning of this region, civilized beginnings go back thousands of years. The Jews claim to go back, of course, to the era of King David 2,000 -- 1,000 years before the birth of Christ, when he created a kingdom called Judea south and east of Jerusalem. He eventually created the capital in Jerusalem. His son erected the first temple of the Jews. So the Jews claim a tie to the land that goes back what, 3,000 years.
They were then, of course, taken into slavery out of the Holy Land. And in the intervening years, you have the whole source of the dispute that lingers to this day about who really does possess the land. And it's, of course, unresolved.
CHOI: Right. And what were the major turning points in this fight over this land both in ancient times and in modern day?
HAMMER: Yes. Well, I think the critical turning point in understanding the Palestinian-Israeli conflict goes back to World War I and the Balfour Declaration in which the British government said that -- agreed to create a Jewish homeland in the land of Palestine, in the boundaries of really what the boundaries that run that include modern-day Jordan all the way to the Mediterranean Sea. That was later shaved down to run from the Jordan River west to the Mediterranean. And that really began the great influx of Jews into the holy land into what is now modern-day Israel.
Of course, you also had an Arab population that had been here for hundreds of years as well. Perhaps even thousands of years. This is where history really gets murky. This period between the Jewish expulsion and 1917 when the creation of this Jewish entity, it really is unclear who had the right -- the right to the land, the Jews here claim that this has always been ours. The Arabs say well in the intervening years it became a Muslim protectorate run by the Egyptians, run by the Persians, run by the Ottomans, huge Arab population influx.
So who really does possess it? You have this constant battle. And then, of course, the Balfour Declaration declared it would be a state for Jews, or an entity for Jews. Then that led directly to the 1948 war that divided the land between the -- created this boundary between the Jewish state of Israel and the West Bank. And it goes on and on like this, constant battles for turf leading to right where we are today.
CHOI: This land holds such religious significance to all of the various groups that you mentioned, Jews, Arabs, Muslims. So putting all that into context is there any way to divide any of the land peacefully, especially Jerusalem?
HAMMER: This of course, has been the bone of contention for thousands of years, hundreds of years, at least. And it continues to be the bone of contention right down to the Camp David talks of 2000, which really fell apart over the question of who would possess Jerusalem? Both sides claim that this is their holy city.
The Jews, of course, built the first temple and the second temple on the mountain in the heart of the city. The Muslims claim that Mohammed made a trek there from Mecca and ascended to heaven from the very place where the Jews built the first temple and the second temple. The Muslims then put up the Dome of the Rock.
So the battle over who should possess Jerusalem continues. There's been talk of internationalizing this city, of making it open to all sides under some sort of U.N. protectorate. There's been talk of splitting the city down the middle giving what is Arabs to the Arabs. Giving what is Jewish to the Jews.
There are -- but there are constant and continually complications about everything from who should possess the Dome of the Rock? Who possesses the temple now? This has resulted in constant battles and constant arguments and an inability to resolve the issue and the continuing strife that we have today.
CHOI: At the heart of the matter, as you've been talking about, is the fight over land. But are there other things that come into play? For example, access to water?
HAMMER: Well, access to water is very important. Of course, perhaps the most important issue for the Palestinians, one that refuses to go away, is the question of these refugees who fled from Israel after the 1948 War and another exodus, of course, after the 1967 Six-Day War.
There are hundreds of thousands of these refugees living across the Arab world, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan. The issue of the right of return is enshrined in Palestinian -- in the Palestinian ethos and Palestinian mentality. On the other hand, Israel does not want this influx of hundreds of thousands of refugees because fundamentally it would challenge the very notion of a Jewish state.
So you have this constant source of conflict. And that you're seeing again, even in the -- with the rise to power of Abu Mazen, the new prime minister, who was attacked at Aqaba two weeks ago for failing to bring up this issue of the right of return of refugees as part of this so-called Road Map that would lead to Middle East peace.
I would say this is, perhaps, the most important issue other than the land dispute that presents an obstacle to the Mid East peace right now.
CHOI: Joshua Hammer, thanks so much for the history lesson and putting all of this into context.
HAMMER: You're welcome.
CHOI: Mr. Hammer, "Newsweek's" Jerusalem bureau chief.
HAMMER: You are quite welcome.
CHOI: And the author of "A Season In Bethlehem, On Holy War In A Sacred Place. " His book comes out in September. Thanks again.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired June 22, 2003 - 09:10 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOPHIA CHOI, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, we're following the Mideast peace talks in Jordan. The so-called Mideast quartet is charting the road map to peace, but now we want to turn back the clocks and talk about the history of hate in that region.
Our history teacher is "Newsweek's" Jerusalem bureau chief Joshua Hammer. He is an author of a book coming out in September on the Intifada and it's called "A Season In Bethlehem, On Holy War In A Sacred Place."
Glad you're joining us. So take us back to the beginning.
JOSHUA HAMMER, JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF, "NEWSWEEK": Hi.
CHOI: Who had what first?
HAMMER: Well, the beginning of this region, civilized beginnings go back thousands of years. The Jews claim to go back, of course, to the era of King David 2,000 -- 1,000 years before the birth of Christ, when he created a kingdom called Judea south and east of Jerusalem. He eventually created the capital in Jerusalem. His son erected the first temple of the Jews. So the Jews claim a tie to the land that goes back what, 3,000 years.
They were then, of course, taken into slavery out of the Holy Land. And in the intervening years, you have the whole source of the dispute that lingers to this day about who really does possess the land. And it's, of course, unresolved.
CHOI: Right. And what were the major turning points in this fight over this land both in ancient times and in modern day?
HAMMER: Yes. Well, I think the critical turning point in understanding the Palestinian-Israeli conflict goes back to World War I and the Balfour Declaration in which the British government said that -- agreed to create a Jewish homeland in the land of Palestine, in the boundaries of really what the boundaries that run that include modern-day Jordan all the way to the Mediterranean Sea. That was later shaved down to run from the Jordan River west to the Mediterranean. And that really began the great influx of Jews into the holy land into what is now modern-day Israel.
Of course, you also had an Arab population that had been here for hundreds of years as well. Perhaps even thousands of years. This is where history really gets murky. This period between the Jewish expulsion and 1917 when the creation of this Jewish entity, it really is unclear who had the right -- the right to the land, the Jews here claim that this has always been ours. The Arabs say well in the intervening years it became a Muslim protectorate run by the Egyptians, run by the Persians, run by the Ottomans, huge Arab population influx.
So who really does possess it? You have this constant battle. And then, of course, the Balfour Declaration declared it would be a state for Jews, or an entity for Jews. Then that led directly to the 1948 war that divided the land between the -- created this boundary between the Jewish state of Israel and the West Bank. And it goes on and on like this, constant battles for turf leading to right where we are today.
CHOI: This land holds such religious significance to all of the various groups that you mentioned, Jews, Arabs, Muslims. So putting all that into context is there any way to divide any of the land peacefully, especially Jerusalem?
HAMMER: This of course, has been the bone of contention for thousands of years, hundreds of years, at least. And it continues to be the bone of contention right down to the Camp David talks of 2000, which really fell apart over the question of who would possess Jerusalem? Both sides claim that this is their holy city.
The Jews, of course, built the first temple and the second temple on the mountain in the heart of the city. The Muslims claim that Mohammed made a trek there from Mecca and ascended to heaven from the very place where the Jews built the first temple and the second temple. The Muslims then put up the Dome of the Rock.
So the battle over who should possess Jerusalem continues. There's been talk of internationalizing this city, of making it open to all sides under some sort of U.N. protectorate. There's been talk of splitting the city down the middle giving what is Arabs to the Arabs. Giving what is Jewish to the Jews.
There are -- but there are constant and continually complications about everything from who should possess the Dome of the Rock? Who possesses the temple now? This has resulted in constant battles and constant arguments and an inability to resolve the issue and the continuing strife that we have today.
CHOI: At the heart of the matter, as you've been talking about, is the fight over land. But are there other things that come into play? For example, access to water?
HAMMER: Well, access to water is very important. Of course, perhaps the most important issue for the Palestinians, one that refuses to go away, is the question of these refugees who fled from Israel after the 1948 War and another exodus, of course, after the 1967 Six-Day War.
There are hundreds of thousands of these refugees living across the Arab world, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan. The issue of the right of return is enshrined in Palestinian -- in the Palestinian ethos and Palestinian mentality. On the other hand, Israel does not want this influx of hundreds of thousands of refugees because fundamentally it would challenge the very notion of a Jewish state.
So you have this constant source of conflict. And that you're seeing again, even in the -- with the rise to power of Abu Mazen, the new prime minister, who was attacked at Aqaba two weeks ago for failing to bring up this issue of the right of return of refugees as part of this so-called Road Map that would lead to Middle East peace.
I would say this is, perhaps, the most important issue other than the land dispute that presents an obstacle to the Mid East peace right now.
CHOI: Joshua Hammer, thanks so much for the history lesson and putting all of this into context.
HAMMER: You're welcome.
CHOI: Mr. Hammer, "Newsweek's" Jerusalem bureau chief.
HAMMER: You are quite welcome.
CHOI: And the author of "A Season In Bethlehem, On Holy War In A Sacred Place. " His book comes out in September. Thanks again.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
