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CNN Sunday Morning
Interview With Cliff May, Emira Woods
Aired July 06, 2003 - 07:41 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Liberia's embattled president gets an important visitor today. President Charles Taylor will discuss an offer to -- of temporary asylum with Nigeria's president. Taylor says he'll step down once peacekeepers arrive in his war torn country.
Well, what is at stake? For some answers, let's go to Washington and talk with Cliff May of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies and Emira Woods with the Institute for Policy Studies.
Good to see both of you.
CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Thank you, good to see you.
EMIRA WOODS, INSTITUTE FOR POLICY STUDIES: It's a pleasure to be here.
WHITFIELD: Well, Cliff, let me begin with you. With Charles Taylor making his way to meet with the Nigerian president, do you see this as politically or potentially politically disruptive for Nigeria, given that this is one of Africa's most economically strong nations?
MAY: Well, Nigeria's trying to be helpful here by offering the presumed Charles Taylor at least temporary asylum in Nigeria. Getting Charles Taylor out, is it going to be a useful thing? Charles Taylor's been sponsored by Libya, by Muammar Gadhafi. I think that President Bush is right to want him out. So I think it's a good first step. But it's not easy for Nigeria, which although it has tremendous oil wealth, is also a nation that has very great difficulties, not least with endemic poverty and corruption and just great difficulties itself.
And Emira, you know, Nigeria happens to be one of President Bush's stopovers during his five African nation tour all week. This is going to make for some very interesting talks between President Bush and the president of Nigeria since obviously, Charles Taylor is trying to seek some temporary asylum there. Do you see a real conflict here?
WOODS: The trip is coming at an opportune time for America to stand with Africa, to stand as part of a multilateral response to the crisis in West Africa, to support efforts from the economic community of West African states and other leaders, including Kofi Annan, that are calling for a stabilization of the crisis on the ground in Liberia. But beyond that, the trip is an opportunity for America to stand with Africa on the core issues of concern to the continent. One of those issues that we hope will be on the agenda will be the issue of debt.
A few weeks ago, senior U.S. officials called the debt of Iraq incurred under Saddam Hussein as odious and illegitimate. They made a clear point in saying that the people of Iraq should not have to repay the debt incurred by a dictator.
Similarly, Mbutu's Democratic Republic of the Congo, Taylor and before him, Sergeant Doe in Liberia have incurred tremendous debt. This debt should not be thrust on the shoulders of Liberia, nor Africa's women and children.
The U.S. must take immediate steps to cancel Africa's odious and illegitimate debt.
WHITFIELD: Well, are you seeing that the humanitarian aid that is lacking in Liberia is really going to be overshadowing all of these issues, the economic issues at heart?
WOODS: The aid is an important piece. It's desperately needed on the ground, but it is only a minor piece. The amount of flows out of Africa in terms of debt service and debt repayments far outweigh any kind of aid, including humanitarian assistance.
Efforts must be made to address the core issue of illegitimate debt in Africa, to ensure that African governments have an opportunity to invest in the future of their countries, to invest in health, in education, and the well-being of their people, without being hampered by debt incurred by dictators.
MAY: Fredricka, one of the things that I...
WHITFIELD: Well, Cliff -- oh, go ahead.
MAY: I was just going to add this. I don't disagree, but we need to think through this mission very carefully. And that is to say are we there for stabilization or are we there for nation building?
We're about to -- we're probably going to send troops into Liberia. I don't think those in the left this time are going to have -- be marching in the streets saying no war on Liberia. War is not the answer even though it may mean that U.S. soldiers are going to be fighting with Africans in places like Liberia.
This whole thing needs to be thought through. Liberia, the Congo, Zimbabwe. A lot of parts of Africa -- most parts of Africa now are really spiraling into chaos. The United Nations has done very little about it. Kofi Annan complains about U.S. unilateralism in places like Iraq, and then insists that the U.S. pick up the bill and take responsibility in places like Liberia.
It -- we... WHITFIELD: But Cliff, you mentioned, I mean you can't have nation rebuilding without stabilization if the U.S. is already saying it wants to help and take part in helping to stabilize, isn't an appeal also being made to other African nations and other European nations as well to say, OK, all of you all helped participate in the nation rebuilding process.
MAY: Oh, yes, absolutely. You have to have stabilization first, if you're going to have nation building. But are we going to have nation building? Nation building is not an easy thing to do. It's not going to be easy in Iraq. People complain there isn't electricity full time in Iraq. Check Monrovia. Check Nigeria. In downtown Lagos, the most important city in that country, the electricity goes off every day. Are we going to take the responsibility to supply electricity, supply water, supply jobs? How much control are we going to have?
People talk about whether we have an exit strategy in a place like Iraq. What's it going to be in Liberia? Again, I'm not opposed to any of this, but I want this thought through. And I want the left and I want people like Kofi Annan, who have been...
WHITFIELD: Well let me get Emira in here real quick because we only have a few seconds left. Well, do you see at issue here for Liberia, Emira, that it's a matter of nation rebuilding and not just stabilization?
WOODS: The issue at the moment is stabilization. What is needed is stabilization force on the ground to maintain the peace. Liberia is completely different from Somalia, from Iraq, from many other places. Liberians are calling for that stabilization force to take place.
Liberians are also simultaneously meeting through peace conferences in Ghana, to try to sort through their own future. The U.S. should not be involved in nation building per se. They should be involved in supporting African responses to our own situations on the ground.
WHITFIELD: All right and what...
MAY: One more --
WHITFIELD: ...OK, go ahead, real quick, 10 seconds.
MAY: One quick point. There's a real humanitarian interest in what the U.S. is going to do here, but there's a national security interest, too. We've seen two often in places like Somalia how failed states become terrorist havens. That could happen in place like Liberia as well. And that could be a terrible thing.
WHITFIELD: OK. All right, Cliff May, thanks very much. Emira Woods, thanks very much to both of you for joining us. And as we say, a Bush assessment team is already on the ground in Liberia to help begin what could end up being a peacekeeping mission, at least as we know it right now. Thanks very much to both of you. WOODS: Thank you for the opportunity.
MAY: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 6, 2003 - 07:41 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Liberia's embattled president gets an important visitor today. President Charles Taylor will discuss an offer to -- of temporary asylum with Nigeria's president. Taylor says he'll step down once peacekeepers arrive in his war torn country.
Well, what is at stake? For some answers, let's go to Washington and talk with Cliff May of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies and Emira Woods with the Institute for Policy Studies.
Good to see both of you.
CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Thank you, good to see you.
EMIRA WOODS, INSTITUTE FOR POLICY STUDIES: It's a pleasure to be here.
WHITFIELD: Well, Cliff, let me begin with you. With Charles Taylor making his way to meet with the Nigerian president, do you see this as politically or potentially politically disruptive for Nigeria, given that this is one of Africa's most economically strong nations?
MAY: Well, Nigeria's trying to be helpful here by offering the presumed Charles Taylor at least temporary asylum in Nigeria. Getting Charles Taylor out, is it going to be a useful thing? Charles Taylor's been sponsored by Libya, by Muammar Gadhafi. I think that President Bush is right to want him out. So I think it's a good first step. But it's not easy for Nigeria, which although it has tremendous oil wealth, is also a nation that has very great difficulties, not least with endemic poverty and corruption and just great difficulties itself.
And Emira, you know, Nigeria happens to be one of President Bush's stopovers during his five African nation tour all week. This is going to make for some very interesting talks between President Bush and the president of Nigeria since obviously, Charles Taylor is trying to seek some temporary asylum there. Do you see a real conflict here?
WOODS: The trip is coming at an opportune time for America to stand with Africa, to stand as part of a multilateral response to the crisis in West Africa, to support efforts from the economic community of West African states and other leaders, including Kofi Annan, that are calling for a stabilization of the crisis on the ground in Liberia. But beyond that, the trip is an opportunity for America to stand with Africa on the core issues of concern to the continent. One of those issues that we hope will be on the agenda will be the issue of debt.
A few weeks ago, senior U.S. officials called the debt of Iraq incurred under Saddam Hussein as odious and illegitimate. They made a clear point in saying that the people of Iraq should not have to repay the debt incurred by a dictator.
Similarly, Mbutu's Democratic Republic of the Congo, Taylor and before him, Sergeant Doe in Liberia have incurred tremendous debt. This debt should not be thrust on the shoulders of Liberia, nor Africa's women and children.
The U.S. must take immediate steps to cancel Africa's odious and illegitimate debt.
WHITFIELD: Well, are you seeing that the humanitarian aid that is lacking in Liberia is really going to be overshadowing all of these issues, the economic issues at heart?
WOODS: The aid is an important piece. It's desperately needed on the ground, but it is only a minor piece. The amount of flows out of Africa in terms of debt service and debt repayments far outweigh any kind of aid, including humanitarian assistance.
Efforts must be made to address the core issue of illegitimate debt in Africa, to ensure that African governments have an opportunity to invest in the future of their countries, to invest in health, in education, and the well-being of their people, without being hampered by debt incurred by dictators.
MAY: Fredricka, one of the things that I...
WHITFIELD: Well, Cliff -- oh, go ahead.
MAY: I was just going to add this. I don't disagree, but we need to think through this mission very carefully. And that is to say are we there for stabilization or are we there for nation building?
We're about to -- we're probably going to send troops into Liberia. I don't think those in the left this time are going to have -- be marching in the streets saying no war on Liberia. War is not the answer even though it may mean that U.S. soldiers are going to be fighting with Africans in places like Liberia.
This whole thing needs to be thought through. Liberia, the Congo, Zimbabwe. A lot of parts of Africa -- most parts of Africa now are really spiraling into chaos. The United Nations has done very little about it. Kofi Annan complains about U.S. unilateralism in places like Iraq, and then insists that the U.S. pick up the bill and take responsibility in places like Liberia.
It -- we... WHITFIELD: But Cliff, you mentioned, I mean you can't have nation rebuilding without stabilization if the U.S. is already saying it wants to help and take part in helping to stabilize, isn't an appeal also being made to other African nations and other European nations as well to say, OK, all of you all helped participate in the nation rebuilding process.
MAY: Oh, yes, absolutely. You have to have stabilization first, if you're going to have nation building. But are we going to have nation building? Nation building is not an easy thing to do. It's not going to be easy in Iraq. People complain there isn't electricity full time in Iraq. Check Monrovia. Check Nigeria. In downtown Lagos, the most important city in that country, the electricity goes off every day. Are we going to take the responsibility to supply electricity, supply water, supply jobs? How much control are we going to have?
People talk about whether we have an exit strategy in a place like Iraq. What's it going to be in Liberia? Again, I'm not opposed to any of this, but I want this thought through. And I want the left and I want people like Kofi Annan, who have been...
WHITFIELD: Well let me get Emira in here real quick because we only have a few seconds left. Well, do you see at issue here for Liberia, Emira, that it's a matter of nation rebuilding and not just stabilization?
WOODS: The issue at the moment is stabilization. What is needed is stabilization force on the ground to maintain the peace. Liberia is completely different from Somalia, from Iraq, from many other places. Liberians are calling for that stabilization force to take place.
Liberians are also simultaneously meeting through peace conferences in Ghana, to try to sort through their own future. The U.S. should not be involved in nation building per se. They should be involved in supporting African responses to our own situations on the ground.
WHITFIELD: All right and what...
MAY: One more --
WHITFIELD: ...OK, go ahead, real quick, 10 seconds.
MAY: One quick point. There's a real humanitarian interest in what the U.S. is going to do here, but there's a national security interest, too. We've seen two often in places like Somalia how failed states become terrorist havens. That could happen in place like Liberia as well. And that could be a terrible thing.
WHITFIELD: OK. All right, Cliff May, thanks very much. Emira Woods, thanks very much to both of you for joining us. And as we say, a Bush assessment team is already on the ground in Liberia to help begin what could end up being a peacekeeping mission, at least as we know it right now. Thanks very much to both of you. WOODS: Thank you for the opportunity.
MAY: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
