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CNN Sunday Morning
Interview With Ben Ferguson, Joyce Kaufman, Roland Martin
Aired July 20, 2003 - 09:19 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Kobe Bryant appears in court August 6 in Colorado to hear charges he sexually assaulted a 19-year-old hotel clerk. The Los Angeles Lakers star maintains his innocence, that case, and a rising U.S. death toll in Iraq, are among the topics today for radio talk panel.
Syndicated talk show host Ben Ferguson, of the Radio America Network.
BEN FERGUSON, TALK SHOW HOST, RADIO AMERICA NETWORK: Hello, to you.
COLLINS: Radio talk show host Joyce Kaufman of WFFL.
Hello, to you Joyce.
JOYCE KAUFMAN, TALK SHOW HOST, WFFL: Good morning.
COLLINS: And syndicated columnist Roland Martin, author of the Creators Syndicate and author of "Speak Brother: A Black Man's View of America."
And good morning to you, sir.
ROLAND MARTIN, TALK SHOW HOST, AUTHOR: Good morning.
COLLINS: Let's go ahead and start with Ben. Just wondering, does Kobe Bryant deserve everything that he's getting? What do your listeners think about that?
FERGUSON: I think he's definitely, in some ways, deserves what he's getting because first he came out and said, to "The L.A. Times," you know me, you know what I'm like. I'll be cleared of all this, which made it sound like nothing happened at all.
Well, then he had to come out and say well, I had an affair with her, because there's obviously that much evidence there, that they had sex. And then, so, yeah, that's going to hurt him.
When you come out and act like there's completely bogus charges and nothing happened at all and then you have to retract it. And go, well, we did, but it wasn't that bad. I don't think it looks good for his fans or the people that know about him in general.
MARTIN: OK, Heidi, I must disagree with that. You can read a number of things into it. When someone says, I wouldn't do anything like that, that was based upon being arrested for sexual assault. So I've heard some people interpret that as saying he did not rape her.
But his statement did not mean that they did not have sex. That's two different issues. It's all a matter of how he interpret of what he told "The L.A. Times."
COLLINS: Joyce, what do you think of all of this? What do your listeners say?
KAUFMAN: Well, they're unfortunately cutting Kobe a lot of slack, which I find very unfortunate. We have a cult of celebrity in this country, which will give a superstar a whole lot of latitude and be suspicious of the young lady's motives. I've not heard anything which would indicate she has any ulterior motive.
She came downstairs crying, and it's like the Desiree Washington story, where everyone sat around and said, well, she wanted Mike Tyson's money. I think that's a little implausible. And I'm really sorry that America takes the side of an athlete, who admits he was cheating on his wife, and is condemning the woman who showed up to give him a hamburger.
(CROSS TALK)
COLLINS: Wait a minute guys, let's just be clear for a minute. We don't have any numbers or percentages on what America really thinks, as far as how many people are on this side of the fence, and this side of the fence. I think, at this point, we're going to have to wait and see how the trial, if there is one, plays out.
KAUFMAN: But a trial doesn't speak to public sentiment. A trial never reflects public sentiment. The O.J. Simpson did not reflect public sentiment. It was simply a legal procedure, which involved great lawyering.
FERGUSON: Most people are playing the gold-digging rule here, where they say the girl must be trying to fill pockets with money. Is in this situation, they had a couple days to come to an agreement where she could have probably been compensated rather well by this man. And they couldn't come to an agreement which tells me she probably doesn't care about the money, and wants to see justice be done in this case.
MARTIN: Well, I am glad to hear that American s have not chosen to make Kobe Bryant guilty. It is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Let's keep that in mind.
But certainly, it's funny, you know on a Sunday, we're talking about scripture, what you do in darkness comes to light. Kobe is paying the price for what happens when you cheat.
One of the problems facing athletes is the whole issue of sexual addiction. And so the NBA and the Major League Baseball, they don't want to deal with that, but this is something we've seen with Michael Jordan, we've seen it with Moses Malone, we've seen it with so many players that have children out of wedlock, that is a major issue among professional athletes. KAUFMAN: Yeah, but it's because professional athletes think they don't have to live by the rules ...
FERGUSON: Exactly right.
KAUFMAN: ...that the rest of society does. And I'm sick and tired of cutting them slack.
MARTIN: I'm sorry, you're saying live by the rules. He cheated on his wife. What rules are you talking about?
KAUFMAN: First of all, adultery is grounds for divorce in many states of Union, but beyond that, you're quoting scripture. There's no portion of the Bible that I know of, in either religion, where adultery is condoned.
MARTIN: No, no, no. I'm not condoning it. I'm simply saying what he did in darkness has now coming to light, and he's paying the price for his adultery.
KAUFMAN: But what's the price?
(CROSS TALK)
FERGUSON: Look at the bigger issue here. It's that -- it's like bottom line is -- don't play by the rules. If you look at court cases when they've gone to court, they get cut slack. They don't play by the same rules the average Americans do. Just because you're Kobe Bryant or Mike Tyson doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to get in trouble.
MARTIN: And let's say some athletes, because you at least have some folks like David Robertson, who recently retired, who was a standup guy. There are a number of athletes who are not on the police blotter, but you do have those folks who choose to flaunt the rules, who choose to break the law. And they pay the price for it sometimes.
FERGUSON: But what message is that sending...
KAUFMAN: I beg your pardon. That used to be Kobe.
(CROSS TALK)
COLLINS: Guys, guys. Let me just jump in here for one second.
Ben, I want to ask you a question, because you have some younger listeners. I'm concerned a little about what this means regardless of how the case turns out.
As far as the role model issue, whether he likes it or not, as we always say, Kobe Bryant is someone that young kids look up to, and often aspire to, have his type of talent. Are your listeners talking about that at all?
FERGUSON: Yeah, absolutely. Because the message that's being sent to young people now is Kobe Bryant can get away -- or most athletes can get away with just about whatever they want to. And when you have somebody that is involved with a 19-year-old like this -- that comes up and says, hey, I made a mistake. The only reason why he really said was that he made a mistake was because he got busted.
I think a lot of young people in this country think as long as you get rich quick and you're famous, you can pretty much get away with whatever you want to. And honestly, and unfortunately, that's what the court systems have been telling these kids over the last several years.
COLLINS: Joyce, let me ask you, what would the fallout be for this 19-year-old victim?
KAUFMAN: Well, I think she's being painted in a rather negative light already. I don't know what the fallout will ultimately be. But what I'm afraid of is what message is sends to young girls across the nation. That if you are molested, if you're assaulted, if you're raped, you'd better be quiet because the public is going to give the benefit of the doubt to the professional athlete, or the superstar, or rap singer who molested you. I think that's a terrible thing to tell young women in this country.
COLLINS: Of course, that will be the hardest thing to prove in this case.
KAUFMAN: And that stand by your man -- I have to tell you the other thing that's really distressing about this for me is all these stand-by-your-man wives that sit there, watching their husband's confess to adultery on television, whether it's the former president of the United States, or it's an athlete and shake their heads, look all sympathetic. If that were me, and I were Kobe Bryant 's wife, I would not be on television. I'd be in divorce court.
MARTIN: Well, you know, maybe there are some wives who actually believe in forgiveness. I mean, so, again, you're criticizing his wife for standing by her husband?
KAUFMAN: I don't think she has to make a public --
FERGUSON: Is it forgiveness or saving face? That's the big question here, because obviously she hasn't even had time to deal with the fact that he's had an affair. I'm sure if she thinks her husband probably didn't sexually assault this young lady, which, you know I give her kudos for having that much admiration for her husband. But then again, he's cheated on her.
MARTIN: She's presuming he's innocent until proven guilty.
KAUFMAN: She already knows he's had sex with this girl, so --
MARTIN: OK --
FERGUSON: Which to me says he's covering his rear end.
(CROSS TALK)
COLLINS: OK, we're not going to be able to hear any of you if you talk over each other.
Roland.
MARTIN: Having sex with someone and raping someone are two different things. What I choose to do is not to convict someone until there is a trial. And so we can make all kinds of inferences, we can apply all kinds of things, but, again, he has been charged. He's going to go to trial and allow the facts to come out. I'm not going to assume he is guilty. What he is guilty of is committing adultery. That is separate from rape.
KAUFMAN: Heidi, you know, I want to go back to something you asked before about role models.
COLLINS: We're running out of time, Joyce. So, this is the final point.
KAUFMAN: Role modeling in this country really needs to be reevaluated. As Charles Barkley once said, I throw a ball through a hoop, I'm not supposed to be your children's role model, why aren't parents role models.
COLLINS: Charles Barkley also said yesterday, at this celebrity golf tournament, "No one is squeaky clean".
KAUFMAN: Exactly.
COLLINS: Which I thought was interesting coming from him.
Of course, a lot more to come on this story. A lot of people talking about it. We're going to keep our finger on it, of course, right here at CNN.
Thanks to the three of you for a very animated discussion this morning. Ben Ferguson, Joyce Kaufman, and Roland Martin, thanks so much guys.
FERGUSON: Thank you.
MARTIN: Heidi, thank you.
KAUFMAN: Thank you, Heidi.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 20, 2003 - 09:19 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Kobe Bryant appears in court August 6 in Colorado to hear charges he sexually assaulted a 19-year-old hotel clerk. The Los Angeles Lakers star maintains his innocence, that case, and a rising U.S. death toll in Iraq, are among the topics today for radio talk panel.
Syndicated talk show host Ben Ferguson, of the Radio America Network.
BEN FERGUSON, TALK SHOW HOST, RADIO AMERICA NETWORK: Hello, to you.
COLLINS: Radio talk show host Joyce Kaufman of WFFL.
Hello, to you Joyce.
JOYCE KAUFMAN, TALK SHOW HOST, WFFL: Good morning.
COLLINS: And syndicated columnist Roland Martin, author of the Creators Syndicate and author of "Speak Brother: A Black Man's View of America."
And good morning to you, sir.
ROLAND MARTIN, TALK SHOW HOST, AUTHOR: Good morning.
COLLINS: Let's go ahead and start with Ben. Just wondering, does Kobe Bryant deserve everything that he's getting? What do your listeners think about that?
FERGUSON: I think he's definitely, in some ways, deserves what he's getting because first he came out and said, to "The L.A. Times," you know me, you know what I'm like. I'll be cleared of all this, which made it sound like nothing happened at all.
Well, then he had to come out and say well, I had an affair with her, because there's obviously that much evidence there, that they had sex. And then, so, yeah, that's going to hurt him.
When you come out and act like there's completely bogus charges and nothing happened at all and then you have to retract it. And go, well, we did, but it wasn't that bad. I don't think it looks good for his fans or the people that know about him in general.
MARTIN: OK, Heidi, I must disagree with that. You can read a number of things into it. When someone says, I wouldn't do anything like that, that was based upon being arrested for sexual assault. So I've heard some people interpret that as saying he did not rape her.
But his statement did not mean that they did not have sex. That's two different issues. It's all a matter of how he interpret of what he told "The L.A. Times."
COLLINS: Joyce, what do you think of all of this? What do your listeners say?
KAUFMAN: Well, they're unfortunately cutting Kobe a lot of slack, which I find very unfortunate. We have a cult of celebrity in this country, which will give a superstar a whole lot of latitude and be suspicious of the young lady's motives. I've not heard anything which would indicate she has any ulterior motive.
She came downstairs crying, and it's like the Desiree Washington story, where everyone sat around and said, well, she wanted Mike Tyson's money. I think that's a little implausible. And I'm really sorry that America takes the side of an athlete, who admits he was cheating on his wife, and is condemning the woman who showed up to give him a hamburger.
(CROSS TALK)
COLLINS: Wait a minute guys, let's just be clear for a minute. We don't have any numbers or percentages on what America really thinks, as far as how many people are on this side of the fence, and this side of the fence. I think, at this point, we're going to have to wait and see how the trial, if there is one, plays out.
KAUFMAN: But a trial doesn't speak to public sentiment. A trial never reflects public sentiment. The O.J. Simpson did not reflect public sentiment. It was simply a legal procedure, which involved great lawyering.
FERGUSON: Most people are playing the gold-digging rule here, where they say the girl must be trying to fill pockets with money. Is in this situation, they had a couple days to come to an agreement where she could have probably been compensated rather well by this man. And they couldn't come to an agreement which tells me she probably doesn't care about the money, and wants to see justice be done in this case.
MARTIN: Well, I am glad to hear that American s have not chosen to make Kobe Bryant guilty. It is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Let's keep that in mind.
But certainly, it's funny, you know on a Sunday, we're talking about scripture, what you do in darkness comes to light. Kobe is paying the price for what happens when you cheat.
One of the problems facing athletes is the whole issue of sexual addiction. And so the NBA and the Major League Baseball, they don't want to deal with that, but this is something we've seen with Michael Jordan, we've seen it with Moses Malone, we've seen it with so many players that have children out of wedlock, that is a major issue among professional athletes. KAUFMAN: Yeah, but it's because professional athletes think they don't have to live by the rules ...
FERGUSON: Exactly right.
KAUFMAN: ...that the rest of society does. And I'm sick and tired of cutting them slack.
MARTIN: I'm sorry, you're saying live by the rules. He cheated on his wife. What rules are you talking about?
KAUFMAN: First of all, adultery is grounds for divorce in many states of Union, but beyond that, you're quoting scripture. There's no portion of the Bible that I know of, in either religion, where adultery is condoned.
MARTIN: No, no, no. I'm not condoning it. I'm simply saying what he did in darkness has now coming to light, and he's paying the price for his adultery.
KAUFMAN: But what's the price?
(CROSS TALK)
FERGUSON: Look at the bigger issue here. It's that -- it's like bottom line is -- don't play by the rules. If you look at court cases when they've gone to court, they get cut slack. They don't play by the same rules the average Americans do. Just because you're Kobe Bryant or Mike Tyson doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to get in trouble.
MARTIN: And let's say some athletes, because you at least have some folks like David Robertson, who recently retired, who was a standup guy. There are a number of athletes who are not on the police blotter, but you do have those folks who choose to flaunt the rules, who choose to break the law. And they pay the price for it sometimes.
FERGUSON: But what message is that sending...
KAUFMAN: I beg your pardon. That used to be Kobe.
(CROSS TALK)
COLLINS: Guys, guys. Let me just jump in here for one second.
Ben, I want to ask you a question, because you have some younger listeners. I'm concerned a little about what this means regardless of how the case turns out.
As far as the role model issue, whether he likes it or not, as we always say, Kobe Bryant is someone that young kids look up to, and often aspire to, have his type of talent. Are your listeners talking about that at all?
FERGUSON: Yeah, absolutely. Because the message that's being sent to young people now is Kobe Bryant can get away -- or most athletes can get away with just about whatever they want to. And when you have somebody that is involved with a 19-year-old like this -- that comes up and says, hey, I made a mistake. The only reason why he really said was that he made a mistake was because he got busted.
I think a lot of young people in this country think as long as you get rich quick and you're famous, you can pretty much get away with whatever you want to. And honestly, and unfortunately, that's what the court systems have been telling these kids over the last several years.
COLLINS: Joyce, let me ask you, what would the fallout be for this 19-year-old victim?
KAUFMAN: Well, I think she's being painted in a rather negative light already. I don't know what the fallout will ultimately be. But what I'm afraid of is what message is sends to young girls across the nation. That if you are molested, if you're assaulted, if you're raped, you'd better be quiet because the public is going to give the benefit of the doubt to the professional athlete, or the superstar, or rap singer who molested you. I think that's a terrible thing to tell young women in this country.
COLLINS: Of course, that will be the hardest thing to prove in this case.
KAUFMAN: And that stand by your man -- I have to tell you the other thing that's really distressing about this for me is all these stand-by-your-man wives that sit there, watching their husband's confess to adultery on television, whether it's the former president of the United States, or it's an athlete and shake their heads, look all sympathetic. If that were me, and I were Kobe Bryant 's wife, I would not be on television. I'd be in divorce court.
MARTIN: Well, you know, maybe there are some wives who actually believe in forgiveness. I mean, so, again, you're criticizing his wife for standing by her husband?
KAUFMAN: I don't think she has to make a public --
FERGUSON: Is it forgiveness or saving face? That's the big question here, because obviously she hasn't even had time to deal with the fact that he's had an affair. I'm sure if she thinks her husband probably didn't sexually assault this young lady, which, you know I give her kudos for having that much admiration for her husband. But then again, he's cheated on her.
MARTIN: She's presuming he's innocent until proven guilty.
KAUFMAN: She already knows he's had sex with this girl, so --
MARTIN: OK --
FERGUSON: Which to me says he's covering his rear end.
(CROSS TALK)
COLLINS: OK, we're not going to be able to hear any of you if you talk over each other.
Roland.
MARTIN: Having sex with someone and raping someone are two different things. What I choose to do is not to convict someone until there is a trial. And so we can make all kinds of inferences, we can apply all kinds of things, but, again, he has been charged. He's going to go to trial and allow the facts to come out. I'm not going to assume he is guilty. What he is guilty of is committing adultery. That is separate from rape.
KAUFMAN: Heidi, you know, I want to go back to something you asked before about role models.
COLLINS: We're running out of time, Joyce. So, this is the final point.
KAUFMAN: Role modeling in this country really needs to be reevaluated. As Charles Barkley once said, I throw a ball through a hoop, I'm not supposed to be your children's role model, why aren't parents role models.
COLLINS: Charles Barkley also said yesterday, at this celebrity golf tournament, "No one is squeaky clean".
KAUFMAN: Exactly.
COLLINS: Which I thought was interesting coming from him.
Of course, a lot more to come on this story. A lot of people talking about it. We're going to keep our finger on it, of course, right here at CNN.
Thanks to the three of you for a very animated discussion this morning. Ben Ferguson, Joyce Kaufman, and Roland Martin, thanks so much guys.
FERGUSON: Thank you.
MARTIN: Heidi, thank you.
KAUFMAN: Thank you, Heidi.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
