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CNN Sunday Morning
Interview With Sandy Rios, Cathy Renna
Aired August 03, 2003 - 07:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, it seems they're having a lot of gay and lesbian issues jumping to the front burner since the Supreme Court struck down the sodomy law from Texas in June. Not only is there controversy over the gay bishop vote, but also contention over gay marriages and a squabble over a gay high school in New York, just to name a few.
Joining us to talk about some of these issues, Cathy Renna, spokesperson for the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, GLAAD. And Sandy Rios, president of Concerned Women for America.
Ladies, good morning. Thank you for being us.
CATHY RENNA, GLAAD: Good morning, Daryn.
SANDY RIOS, CONCERNED WOMEN FOR AMERICA: Good morning, Daryn.
KAGAN: OK, let's go ahead and start first about the idea of gay marriage. And Kathy, I'm going to go ahead and bring you in on this because the latest polls do not look like Americans really want this to happen.
Republicans, more than 70 percent, say they are against gay marriage. Democrats say more than 50 percent, they are against gay marriage.
RENNA: Well Daryn, I think we're starting to see some fluctuation in polls. And frankly, there are other polls. There's the Zogby poll in New Jersey last week that show that 55 percent of the population polled in New Jersey supported same sex marriages.
So you know, I think the reality is that, you know, we are having a very public and very complex discussion about gay and lesbian issues finally. And what it points to us at GLAAD is just continued progress. People really need to learn about what it means to be gay or lesbian and in a long term committed relationship. And frankly, we welcome the conversation and the debate.
KAGAN: Sandy, let's bring you in here. In terms of talking about reality, you can get into a philosophical debate about whether you're in favor of gay marriage, but you can't wish away the millions of people who are out there living in same sex unions, whether they are blessed by a state or a church or not. There are people who are married in their eyes, who are raising families, and they're not going away. RIOS: I wouldn't wish those people away, Daryn. That's a complete misunderstanding. I mean, many of us have family members in that situation, so we're not wishing them away.
But what we wish for them is what's best for them. And that is not some illusions of marriage and family that comes from the union of a woman and a woman and a man and a man. It is not the real thing. It will never be, no matter what the polls say. It is not healthy.
KAGAN: So it's better for these people, more healthy for these people to live alone and not to have families?
RIOS: No...
KAGAN: Is that what you're saying?
RIOS: I don't think that's the choice, Daryn. I think that there is help to bring people out of that lifestyle. I think there's counseling and help, but I don't think it's healthy.
I bet if you talked to most gay and lesbian people in the quietness of their hearts, when they talk about the life that they live, they would admit to you it is not a happy life.
I'm not saying they don't have happy moments, but it's not the fullest life.
RENNA: I don't know where Sandy gets to be an expert on this. I don't -- you know, I'm an out lesbian. I have been my entire life, you know. I work with thousands of people in our community. And what I do know is that we just want to be treated equally and respected.
RIOS: Cathy, let me just tell you that I know a lot of...
RENNA: It's a thin veneer of discrimination. You're just a bully.
RIOS: Cathy, listen...
RENNA: It's really...
RIOS: I'm not a bully.
RENNA: It's sad. Yes you are.
RIOS: And I know a lot of heterosexuals who love people that are not their spouses. And they leave their families and go live with the other spouse. And they're happy, too.
But it does not make it right, Cathy. And we're talking about long term, not short term happiness. I'm telling you that God's ways are best. Man and a woman and a woman and a man.
RENNA: And that's your opinion, but other denominations...
RIOS: No, it's God's opinion. RENNA: ...like Episcopals are having this conversation, are trying to struggle with the gay and lesbian people.
KAGAN: Yes, let me just jump in here because as long as you brought up the subject of God, let's go right to there -- to that subject, because that's what the Episcopalian church is looking at. This weekend, gay ordination, they should decide by today or tomorrow whether Gene Robinson will become a bishop, the first openly gay bishop.
Cathy, what do you think about this?
RENNA: Well, I think they're doing exactly what each denomination should be doing, having a conversation within their own church. The fact is that what gay and lesbian couples are fighting for right now are civil marriage rights. And when our own president and the pope starting getting involved in their own -- using their own personal religious beliefs to try and infringe on people's civil rights, that's where I think it's so important that this debate go, because most Americans I believe really don't think any one religion or denomination should be charge of or be influencing any kind of public policies.
KAGAN: Sandy, if nothing else, I think you have to say hats off to the Episcopalian church. They are taking front -- they are facing front on an issue that is facing a lot of religious denominations these days?
RIOS: I don't know if you say hats off. I think they can't help it. They have to face it, but I don't say hats off to them installing a bishop who left his wife and children for a man.
You know, I call that immoral under any category, whether he's gay or whatever he is. He left his family for heaven's sake. He is not qualified.
And you know, let me tell you as a Christian, the laws that God has set about are loving laws. They're not laws that are put in place to punish us. But he said, Jesus himself said if you love me, keep my commandments. And so he doesn't love unconditionally -- he does love unconditionally, but he does not love without the expectation that we obey.
And so that bishop is spitting in the face of all that Jesus said. It is not acceptable. I pray that the Episcopalian church will come down on the right side of this issue.
KAGAN: I want to bring it to our culture. We've been seeing a lot of, shall we say gay theme programming coming up, right into prime-time, whether it's "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" or "Boy Meets Boy." Is this an example, Cathy, that just homosexuality is becoming an everyday part of pop culture?
RENNA: I think it is beginning to be much more discussed. I mean, you know, to be included in shows like "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy," "Boy Meets Boy," I mean, they're not perfect. They do display some stereotypes. And they certainly don't represent the diversity of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender community in terms of race and age and class and other parts of our community that often are invisible in the media.
But you know, again, I think the cultural progress we've made has been out -- has been much more than unfortunately some of the progress we've made legally.
I mean, you know, if Sandy wants to talk about reality, the fact is there are 34 states in this country where you can be fired simply because you're gay. And the vast majority of people in this country...
RIOS: Cathy, that's not true.
RENNA: Yes, it is.
RIOS: When was the last person that was...
RENNA: 34 states in this country...
RIOS: Tell me a name of a person recently that's lost their job because they're gay?
KAGAN: Hold on, here. Sandy...
RIOS: Cathy?
KAGAN: No, Sandy, I want to bring it back to this, because I just want to ask you a question. One, "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy," would you watch?
RIOS: Oh, I probably would watch it, but Daryn, I think one thing I want to point out. Remember in the '50s, maybe you don't remember in the '50s, but...
KAGAN: A little before my time, but thank you.
RIOS: ...television was very innocent. Dick Van Dyke and all those, you know, it was very, very innocent. And then we moved into a new period where adultery was the hot theme.
And so gradually, we learned to see how wonderful adultery was. We didn't ever see what happened the next morning, but we saw, you know, them going to bed. And so gradually, our sensitivity to these moral issues has been broken down.
And I think the same thing is happening. These shows being introduced are appealing to the heterosexual community. And you know, I'm sure some of them are very clever. But it's kind of a progression, but I call it a regression, where we gradually accept things that we ought not to accept. That's why marriage is broken down, heterosexual. And now we're trying to embrace homosexual.
We are not progressing. We are regressing. KAGAN: All right, I'll just have to leave it at that. Sandy Rios, Cathy Renna, ladies, thank you for the discussion this morning, getting up early on this Sunday morning. No debate about that. We definitely appreciate you getting up.
RENNA: Thank you, Daryn.
KAGAN: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired August 3, 2003 - 07:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, it seems they're having a lot of gay and lesbian issues jumping to the front burner since the Supreme Court struck down the sodomy law from Texas in June. Not only is there controversy over the gay bishop vote, but also contention over gay marriages and a squabble over a gay high school in New York, just to name a few.
Joining us to talk about some of these issues, Cathy Renna, spokesperson for the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, GLAAD. And Sandy Rios, president of Concerned Women for America.
Ladies, good morning. Thank you for being us.
CATHY RENNA, GLAAD: Good morning, Daryn.
SANDY RIOS, CONCERNED WOMEN FOR AMERICA: Good morning, Daryn.
KAGAN: OK, let's go ahead and start first about the idea of gay marriage. And Kathy, I'm going to go ahead and bring you in on this because the latest polls do not look like Americans really want this to happen.
Republicans, more than 70 percent, say they are against gay marriage. Democrats say more than 50 percent, they are against gay marriage.
RENNA: Well Daryn, I think we're starting to see some fluctuation in polls. And frankly, there are other polls. There's the Zogby poll in New Jersey last week that show that 55 percent of the population polled in New Jersey supported same sex marriages.
So you know, I think the reality is that, you know, we are having a very public and very complex discussion about gay and lesbian issues finally. And what it points to us at GLAAD is just continued progress. People really need to learn about what it means to be gay or lesbian and in a long term committed relationship. And frankly, we welcome the conversation and the debate.
KAGAN: Sandy, let's bring you in here. In terms of talking about reality, you can get into a philosophical debate about whether you're in favor of gay marriage, but you can't wish away the millions of people who are out there living in same sex unions, whether they are blessed by a state or a church or not. There are people who are married in their eyes, who are raising families, and they're not going away. RIOS: I wouldn't wish those people away, Daryn. That's a complete misunderstanding. I mean, many of us have family members in that situation, so we're not wishing them away.
But what we wish for them is what's best for them. And that is not some illusions of marriage and family that comes from the union of a woman and a woman and a man and a man. It is not the real thing. It will never be, no matter what the polls say. It is not healthy.
KAGAN: So it's better for these people, more healthy for these people to live alone and not to have families?
RIOS: No...
KAGAN: Is that what you're saying?
RIOS: I don't think that's the choice, Daryn. I think that there is help to bring people out of that lifestyle. I think there's counseling and help, but I don't think it's healthy.
I bet if you talked to most gay and lesbian people in the quietness of their hearts, when they talk about the life that they live, they would admit to you it is not a happy life.
I'm not saying they don't have happy moments, but it's not the fullest life.
RENNA: I don't know where Sandy gets to be an expert on this. I don't -- you know, I'm an out lesbian. I have been my entire life, you know. I work with thousands of people in our community. And what I do know is that we just want to be treated equally and respected.
RIOS: Cathy, let me just tell you that I know a lot of...
RENNA: It's a thin veneer of discrimination. You're just a bully.
RIOS: Cathy, listen...
RENNA: It's really...
RIOS: I'm not a bully.
RENNA: It's sad. Yes you are.
RIOS: And I know a lot of heterosexuals who love people that are not their spouses. And they leave their families and go live with the other spouse. And they're happy, too.
But it does not make it right, Cathy. And we're talking about long term, not short term happiness. I'm telling you that God's ways are best. Man and a woman and a woman and a man.
RENNA: And that's your opinion, but other denominations...
RIOS: No, it's God's opinion. RENNA: ...like Episcopals are having this conversation, are trying to struggle with the gay and lesbian people.
KAGAN: Yes, let me just jump in here because as long as you brought up the subject of God, let's go right to there -- to that subject, because that's what the Episcopalian church is looking at. This weekend, gay ordination, they should decide by today or tomorrow whether Gene Robinson will become a bishop, the first openly gay bishop.
Cathy, what do you think about this?
RENNA: Well, I think they're doing exactly what each denomination should be doing, having a conversation within their own church. The fact is that what gay and lesbian couples are fighting for right now are civil marriage rights. And when our own president and the pope starting getting involved in their own -- using their own personal religious beliefs to try and infringe on people's civil rights, that's where I think it's so important that this debate go, because most Americans I believe really don't think any one religion or denomination should be charge of or be influencing any kind of public policies.
KAGAN: Sandy, if nothing else, I think you have to say hats off to the Episcopalian church. They are taking front -- they are facing front on an issue that is facing a lot of religious denominations these days?
RIOS: I don't know if you say hats off. I think they can't help it. They have to face it, but I don't say hats off to them installing a bishop who left his wife and children for a man.
You know, I call that immoral under any category, whether he's gay or whatever he is. He left his family for heaven's sake. He is not qualified.
And you know, let me tell you as a Christian, the laws that God has set about are loving laws. They're not laws that are put in place to punish us. But he said, Jesus himself said if you love me, keep my commandments. And so he doesn't love unconditionally -- he does love unconditionally, but he does not love without the expectation that we obey.
And so that bishop is spitting in the face of all that Jesus said. It is not acceptable. I pray that the Episcopalian church will come down on the right side of this issue.
KAGAN: I want to bring it to our culture. We've been seeing a lot of, shall we say gay theme programming coming up, right into prime-time, whether it's "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" or "Boy Meets Boy." Is this an example, Cathy, that just homosexuality is becoming an everyday part of pop culture?
RENNA: I think it is beginning to be much more discussed. I mean, you know, to be included in shows like "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy," "Boy Meets Boy," I mean, they're not perfect. They do display some stereotypes. And they certainly don't represent the diversity of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender community in terms of race and age and class and other parts of our community that often are invisible in the media.
But you know, again, I think the cultural progress we've made has been out -- has been much more than unfortunately some of the progress we've made legally.
I mean, you know, if Sandy wants to talk about reality, the fact is there are 34 states in this country where you can be fired simply because you're gay. And the vast majority of people in this country...
RIOS: Cathy, that's not true.
RENNA: Yes, it is.
RIOS: When was the last person that was...
RENNA: 34 states in this country...
RIOS: Tell me a name of a person recently that's lost their job because they're gay?
KAGAN: Hold on, here. Sandy...
RIOS: Cathy?
KAGAN: No, Sandy, I want to bring it back to this, because I just want to ask you a question. One, "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy," would you watch?
RIOS: Oh, I probably would watch it, but Daryn, I think one thing I want to point out. Remember in the '50s, maybe you don't remember in the '50s, but...
KAGAN: A little before my time, but thank you.
RIOS: ...television was very innocent. Dick Van Dyke and all those, you know, it was very, very innocent. And then we moved into a new period where adultery was the hot theme.
And so gradually, we learned to see how wonderful adultery was. We didn't ever see what happened the next morning, but we saw, you know, them going to bed. And so gradually, our sensitivity to these moral issues has been broken down.
And I think the same thing is happening. These shows being introduced are appealing to the heterosexual community. And you know, I'm sure some of them are very clever. But it's kind of a progression, but I call it a regression, where we gradually accept things that we ought not to accept. That's why marriage is broken down, heterosexual. And now we're trying to embrace homosexual.
We are not progressing. We are regressing. KAGAN: All right, I'll just have to leave it at that. Sandy Rios, Cathy Renna, ladies, thank you for the discussion this morning, getting up early on this Sunday morning. No debate about that. We definitely appreciate you getting up.
RENNA: Thank you, Daryn.
KAGAN: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
