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CNN Sunday Morning
Interview With Michael Scardaville, Togba Porte
Aired August 10, 2003 - 08:14 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN ANCHOR: It's a relatively quiet day in civil war-ravaged Liberia. Civilians and combatants are awaiting President Charles Taylor's announcement that he is stepping down on Monday. The rebels, who have besieged Monrovia for weeks, are not happy with Taylor's plan to turn over power to his vice president. Those rebels still hold Monrovia's port, and yesterday they gave U.S. and West African military officers their first access to the port. The officers found that humanitarian aid warehouses at the port had been looted.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Only a few U.S. troops are in Liberia right now, and there is disagreement over whether more Americans should join the West African peacekeepers trying to restore order there. Our debaters are Togba Porte of Liberians With One Voice for Peace and Michael Scardaville of the Heritage Foundation. Welcome to you both.
TOGBA PORTE, LIBERIANS WITH ONE VOICE FOR PEACE: Thank you.
MICHAEL SCARDAVILLE, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Thank you.
COSTELLO: Toga, let's start with you. Should more U.S. troops go in there?
PORTE: Good morning, Carol. I do believe that more U.S. troops should go to Liberia. It's not only that I do believe that, but it's a moral obligation for the entire world to look at the situation in Liberia right now and send troops from all across the world to help not just Liberia, but children and mothers and women and seniors who are dying in that country. It's a moral obligation.
COSTELLO: Michael, do you believe it's a moral obligation for the United States to send more troops into Liberia?
SCARDAVILLE: No. When you start to talk about moral obligations and the application of military force, you're talking about crusades. And crusaders have historically not too fared well in the long term. We should only use military force when we have a definite national security interest.
Any security interest in Liberia is peripheral. And when you talk about human suffering, which is horrible, and we should do something to help assist that, but you don't send in the United States Marine Corps to reduce human suffering. You sandy in the Peace Corps. They're very different institutions, and we should make sure we're sending the right one. COSTELLO: Well, Michael, some could argue that the reason the United States went into Iraq was peripheral.
SCARDAVILLE: No. Iraq has a whole host of national security threats to the United States. It was destabilizing a geo-strategic focal point in the Persian Gulf. It was -- had access to natural resources that were vital not only to the United States, but to the international community. It was financing terrorism, particularly the suicide bombers in Israel. It may have been seeking weapons of mass destruction, probably was.
COSTELLO: And all of what you said could be debated, so let's let Togba respond.
PORTE: Well, thank you, Carol. I don't know. Michael's standpoint may be -- I mean, maybe he came on to teach people about what -- I mean, what philosophy people of the world have. But in Liberia right now, it's a dire need for -- to save people.
We're not talking about carrying (ph) out philosophies right now. What we believe in is that what Liberians need right now is a situation where peace can come into the country, where starving people can eat, where dying children can have medication.
COSTELLO: Well, Togba, I think Americans get that. But I think that they want Africa to help itself.
Charles Taylor, let's talk about him right now, because one of the conditions that the president has set out to send more troops in is that Charles Taylor not only steps out of office but gets out of the country. Do you think he'll really do that, like he says he will on Monday?
PORTE: Carol, I hope Charles Taylor will get out of office by Monday. And if he don't, I suggest that the Liberian legislature should carry on an order of impeachment against him. However, the situation right now is for humanitarian aid. And I want to stress that, because when you are dying and hungry, you won't think rationally to try to solve problems from a rational standpoint.
We can sit her comfortably in America and talk about how the process should be (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I mean, carry all the situation or Liberians should do so. Who will do that in Liberia when you have factions fighting against each other?
COSTELLO: Michael, who will do that? Let Michael respond now. Michael, who will do that?
SCARDAVILLE: When is the last time you associated the words "humanitarian" and "United States Marine corps" together? What we have in Liberia is an act of civil war between two groups of thugs, Charles Taylor's thugs and the revolutionary thugs. And we don't have an interest in either of these groups running the country.
There is no peace to be kept. This is an active war. If we send in the United States Marine Corps, they are going to be fighting a war as much as they did in Iraq, as much as they did in World War II. And that is not peacekeeping.
That's going in and trying to ouster one government for the favor of something else. But the alternative here is no better. They're both thugs. Going in and sending in the Marines to remove Charles Taylor is not going to create peace and stability and prosperity.
COSTELLO: All right. We have to end our debate right now. Togba, if you can do it quickly, you'll have the last word.
PORTE: Yes. Let me just say there is no war in Liberia.
SCARDAVILLE: What? Then what's the fighting going on?
PORTE: We're asking the peacekeepers to come in and set for us this pace where people can get food and needed humanitarian aid. And we are asking them...
SCARDAVILLE: There's no peacekeepers. There's no peace.
COSTELLO: All right. We could debate this for hours, I'm sure, but we really do have to go. We'll have much more on...
PORTE: I hope we will have the opportunity to come back again, because this is an interesting situation.
COSTELLO: Absolutely. We'll invite you both. Togba Porte, Michael Scardaville, thanks to both of you for joining us this morning.
PORTE: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired August 10, 2003 - 08:14 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN ANCHOR: It's a relatively quiet day in civil war-ravaged Liberia. Civilians and combatants are awaiting President Charles Taylor's announcement that he is stepping down on Monday. The rebels, who have besieged Monrovia for weeks, are not happy with Taylor's plan to turn over power to his vice president. Those rebels still hold Monrovia's port, and yesterday they gave U.S. and West African military officers their first access to the port. The officers found that humanitarian aid warehouses at the port had been looted.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Only a few U.S. troops are in Liberia right now, and there is disagreement over whether more Americans should join the West African peacekeepers trying to restore order there. Our debaters are Togba Porte of Liberians With One Voice for Peace and Michael Scardaville of the Heritage Foundation. Welcome to you both.
TOGBA PORTE, LIBERIANS WITH ONE VOICE FOR PEACE: Thank you.
MICHAEL SCARDAVILLE, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Thank you.
COSTELLO: Toga, let's start with you. Should more U.S. troops go in there?
PORTE: Good morning, Carol. I do believe that more U.S. troops should go to Liberia. It's not only that I do believe that, but it's a moral obligation for the entire world to look at the situation in Liberia right now and send troops from all across the world to help not just Liberia, but children and mothers and women and seniors who are dying in that country. It's a moral obligation.
COSTELLO: Michael, do you believe it's a moral obligation for the United States to send more troops into Liberia?
SCARDAVILLE: No. When you start to talk about moral obligations and the application of military force, you're talking about crusades. And crusaders have historically not too fared well in the long term. We should only use military force when we have a definite national security interest.
Any security interest in Liberia is peripheral. And when you talk about human suffering, which is horrible, and we should do something to help assist that, but you don't send in the United States Marine Corps to reduce human suffering. You sandy in the Peace Corps. They're very different institutions, and we should make sure we're sending the right one. COSTELLO: Well, Michael, some could argue that the reason the United States went into Iraq was peripheral.
SCARDAVILLE: No. Iraq has a whole host of national security threats to the United States. It was destabilizing a geo-strategic focal point in the Persian Gulf. It was -- had access to natural resources that were vital not only to the United States, but to the international community. It was financing terrorism, particularly the suicide bombers in Israel. It may have been seeking weapons of mass destruction, probably was.
COSTELLO: And all of what you said could be debated, so let's let Togba respond.
PORTE: Well, thank you, Carol. I don't know. Michael's standpoint may be -- I mean, maybe he came on to teach people about what -- I mean, what philosophy people of the world have. But in Liberia right now, it's a dire need for -- to save people.
We're not talking about carrying (ph) out philosophies right now. What we believe in is that what Liberians need right now is a situation where peace can come into the country, where starving people can eat, where dying children can have medication.
COSTELLO: Well, Togba, I think Americans get that. But I think that they want Africa to help itself.
Charles Taylor, let's talk about him right now, because one of the conditions that the president has set out to send more troops in is that Charles Taylor not only steps out of office but gets out of the country. Do you think he'll really do that, like he says he will on Monday?
PORTE: Carol, I hope Charles Taylor will get out of office by Monday. And if he don't, I suggest that the Liberian legislature should carry on an order of impeachment against him. However, the situation right now is for humanitarian aid. And I want to stress that, because when you are dying and hungry, you won't think rationally to try to solve problems from a rational standpoint.
We can sit her comfortably in America and talk about how the process should be (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I mean, carry all the situation or Liberians should do so. Who will do that in Liberia when you have factions fighting against each other?
COSTELLO: Michael, who will do that? Let Michael respond now. Michael, who will do that?
SCARDAVILLE: When is the last time you associated the words "humanitarian" and "United States Marine corps" together? What we have in Liberia is an act of civil war between two groups of thugs, Charles Taylor's thugs and the revolutionary thugs. And we don't have an interest in either of these groups running the country.
There is no peace to be kept. This is an active war. If we send in the United States Marine Corps, they are going to be fighting a war as much as they did in Iraq, as much as they did in World War II. And that is not peacekeeping.
That's going in and trying to ouster one government for the favor of something else. But the alternative here is no better. They're both thugs. Going in and sending in the Marines to remove Charles Taylor is not going to create peace and stability and prosperity.
COSTELLO: All right. We have to end our debate right now. Togba, if you can do it quickly, you'll have the last word.
PORTE: Yes. Let me just say there is no war in Liberia.
SCARDAVILLE: What? Then what's the fighting going on?
PORTE: We're asking the peacekeepers to come in and set for us this pace where people can get food and needed humanitarian aid. And we are asking them...
SCARDAVILLE: There's no peacekeepers. There's no peace.
COSTELLO: All right. We could debate this for hours, I'm sure, but we really do have to go. We'll have much more on...
PORTE: I hope we will have the opportunity to come back again, because this is an interesting situation.
COSTELLO: Absolutely. We'll invite you both. Togba Porte, Michael Scardaville, thanks to both of you for joining us this morning.
PORTE: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
