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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview With Lawrence Korb, James Carafano

Aired August 24, 2003 - 08:14   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: More reports of instability in Iraq. We've just gotten word that two more U.S. soldiers are dead. And just hours ago, eyewitnesses say a U.S. military Humvee was hit by an explosion on a Baghdad bridge. With no end to the attacks in sight, what will it take for coalition forces to accomplish their mission in Iraq? The debate from James Carafano at the Heritage Foundation and Lawrence Korb of the Council on Foreign Relations.
Gentlemen -- if I can just start by asking you, James, the situation in Iraq, you don't believe that more troops is the answer?

JAMES CARAFANO, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Well, I think the only guy that can really make that assessment is the commander on the ground. If the commander on the ground says he needs more troops to defend the pipeline or whatever, I think we should definitely send them. But you know he's the person that needs to make that assessment.

VAUSE: But Lawrence, you obviously disagree with this? You think that security is the number one issue and more troops would do the trick? Some people are saying as many as half a million troops are needed.

LAWRENCE KORB, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, I think we have to go back to the fact that General Shinseki, who is the army chief of staff who had been head of our peacekeeping operations in Bosnia, said before the war that it would be several hundred thousand, a minimum of 200,000 troops. The fact of the matter is we can't provide security as well as protect the borders. And we're seeing people constantly infiltrating over the borders because we simply don't have the forces to protect them.

We're asking the other countries in the area to do that. They're not doing a very good job of it. And so if you're concerned about what's happening to the Americans, what's happening to the Iraqi people, you simply are going to need more troop there. And if you can't get them from other countries by allowing the U.N. to take more control, you're going to have to do them by the United States.

If you don't, you continue to see what's happening. We've lost more people since the fall of Baghdad than we did in taking Baghdad.

VAUSE: James, I'd like to ask you, then, if troops, more troops is not the answer, what is? How do you make Iraq and, I guess, Baghdad in particular, more secure?

CARAFANO: Well, let's understand this. The only people that are going to rebuild Iraq are the Iraqis. I mean, take a lesson after World War II. I mean, the Europeans rebuilt Europe; the Americans didn't rebuild Europe.

As a matter of fact, the American military was pretty much done by 1947. The Marshall Plan, which a lot of people talk about, that was run by the State Department. All you can do is provide the beginnings, provide a safe and secure (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and build up the Iraqi forces and put the government in charge. In the long run, that's the real key.

VAUSE: What about in the short term, though? What about having international troops, having a multinational force in there? Is that one solution?

CARAFANO: Well, again, I think if the commander on the ground doesn't say we need more troops, having a multinational troop I think would be good from the perspective that it would make it less of a focal point to go after the Americans. But in terms of just the gross number of troops you need for the occupation, you know I don't really see where the thing is in more troops there. As a matter of fact, there was a piece in the "TIMES" today; there's a lot of parts in the country where we're making very, very good progress.

VAUSE: But we just -- and to be fair, we just heard from General Richard Myers basically saying that, just as you were saying, it is up to the CENTCOM commander whether or not more troops are needed. And at this stage, he's saying no. But there's no secret they're saying that a multinational force, a third division is needed.

Lawrence, will they get that multinational force, and is that the answer?

KORB: Well, they're not going to get a significant multinational force unless they allow the international community to have more responsibility for what's going on. I don't understand what's happening. We accomplished our objective, we got rid of Saddam Hussein.

It is not our responsibility to rebuild the country. We're not very good at it. The international community's much better at it.

Kofi Annan says it is a responsibility of the whole international community. Let's let them have it and do that so that we can keep our troops, start sending some of our troops home, and put them in other place where's they might be needed.

VAUSE: But Lawrence, isn't this the argument that the U.N. made beforehand, that this was not a war which they wanted, that France and Russia and China opposed? And there was a fear amongst the U.N. that the United States would go in, do this war and some people are saying make a mess of it and then just walk away and leave it for the U.N. to work it out.

KORB: Well, but the fact of the matter is the U.N. wants to do it. I mean, that's what's going on.

VAUSE: But only on their terms, not on American terms.

KORB: Well, yes, but I mean on their terms means that they have more control. Look, the United has taken responsibility for what's going on in the Balkans. We did the heavy lifting. It was the Americans that did the bombing in Kosovo; we did the bombing in Bosnia.

If you look at Afghanistan, our troops did a great job, but security assistance is now being provided by NATO. So there's no real problem with doing that. The fact of the matter is that they want to do it. So why not let them?

Now, I agree with you if, in fact, they said, well, you know, you broke it, now you fix it and wash their hands, but that's not what's happening. The Indian government has said that if, in fact, this becomes a U.N. authorization, they would be willing to contribute a whole division. That's 15,000 troops. That's almost as many as we've gotten from these other 30 countries that have contributed small amounts of troops.

VAUSE: And James, I want to ask you, how much of the talk of pulling troops out, of the exit strategy of handing responsibility over to this international force, how much of that is being driven by the domestic agenda here in the United States? It's coming up to an election cycle. The president needs some good news. He needs to get out of what many people are now starting to talk about, a quagmire in Iraq.

CARAFANO: Well, I don't think that that's really going to affect it one way or another. I mean, the real key here, again, is to setting up the Iraqi government, standing up the Iraqi security forces, and doing that as quickly as possible. I have no opposition to U.N. participation as long as it doesn't slow down that train, because that's the real key to success.

VAUSE: OK. James Carafano there in Washington, and also Lawrence Korb, thank you for joining us on CNN and giving us your thoughts on how to make Iraq secure. No doubt, many people are asking that question as well.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired August 24, 2003 - 08:14   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: More reports of instability in Iraq. We've just gotten word that two more U.S. soldiers are dead. And just hours ago, eyewitnesses say a U.S. military Humvee was hit by an explosion on a Baghdad bridge. With no end to the attacks in sight, what will it take for coalition forces to accomplish their mission in Iraq? The debate from James Carafano at the Heritage Foundation and Lawrence Korb of the Council on Foreign Relations.
Gentlemen -- if I can just start by asking you, James, the situation in Iraq, you don't believe that more troops is the answer?

JAMES CARAFANO, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Well, I think the only guy that can really make that assessment is the commander on the ground. If the commander on the ground says he needs more troops to defend the pipeline or whatever, I think we should definitely send them. But you know he's the person that needs to make that assessment.

VAUSE: But Lawrence, you obviously disagree with this? You think that security is the number one issue and more troops would do the trick? Some people are saying as many as half a million troops are needed.

LAWRENCE KORB, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, I think we have to go back to the fact that General Shinseki, who is the army chief of staff who had been head of our peacekeeping operations in Bosnia, said before the war that it would be several hundred thousand, a minimum of 200,000 troops. The fact of the matter is we can't provide security as well as protect the borders. And we're seeing people constantly infiltrating over the borders because we simply don't have the forces to protect them.

We're asking the other countries in the area to do that. They're not doing a very good job of it. And so if you're concerned about what's happening to the Americans, what's happening to the Iraqi people, you simply are going to need more troop there. And if you can't get them from other countries by allowing the U.N. to take more control, you're going to have to do them by the United States.

If you don't, you continue to see what's happening. We've lost more people since the fall of Baghdad than we did in taking Baghdad.

VAUSE: James, I'd like to ask you, then, if troops, more troops is not the answer, what is? How do you make Iraq and, I guess, Baghdad in particular, more secure?

CARAFANO: Well, let's understand this. The only people that are going to rebuild Iraq are the Iraqis. I mean, take a lesson after World War II. I mean, the Europeans rebuilt Europe; the Americans didn't rebuild Europe.

As a matter of fact, the American military was pretty much done by 1947. The Marshall Plan, which a lot of people talk about, that was run by the State Department. All you can do is provide the beginnings, provide a safe and secure (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and build up the Iraqi forces and put the government in charge. In the long run, that's the real key.

VAUSE: What about in the short term, though? What about having international troops, having a multinational force in there? Is that one solution?

CARAFANO: Well, again, I think if the commander on the ground doesn't say we need more troops, having a multinational troop I think would be good from the perspective that it would make it less of a focal point to go after the Americans. But in terms of just the gross number of troops you need for the occupation, you know I don't really see where the thing is in more troops there. As a matter of fact, there was a piece in the "TIMES" today; there's a lot of parts in the country where we're making very, very good progress.

VAUSE: But we just -- and to be fair, we just heard from General Richard Myers basically saying that, just as you were saying, it is up to the CENTCOM commander whether or not more troops are needed. And at this stage, he's saying no. But there's no secret they're saying that a multinational force, a third division is needed.

Lawrence, will they get that multinational force, and is that the answer?

KORB: Well, they're not going to get a significant multinational force unless they allow the international community to have more responsibility for what's going on. I don't understand what's happening. We accomplished our objective, we got rid of Saddam Hussein.

It is not our responsibility to rebuild the country. We're not very good at it. The international community's much better at it.

Kofi Annan says it is a responsibility of the whole international community. Let's let them have it and do that so that we can keep our troops, start sending some of our troops home, and put them in other place where's they might be needed.

VAUSE: But Lawrence, isn't this the argument that the U.N. made beforehand, that this was not a war which they wanted, that France and Russia and China opposed? And there was a fear amongst the U.N. that the United States would go in, do this war and some people are saying make a mess of it and then just walk away and leave it for the U.N. to work it out.

KORB: Well, but the fact of the matter is the U.N. wants to do it. I mean, that's what's going on.

VAUSE: But only on their terms, not on American terms.

KORB: Well, yes, but I mean on their terms means that they have more control. Look, the United has taken responsibility for what's going on in the Balkans. We did the heavy lifting. It was the Americans that did the bombing in Kosovo; we did the bombing in Bosnia.

If you look at Afghanistan, our troops did a great job, but security assistance is now being provided by NATO. So there's no real problem with doing that. The fact of the matter is that they want to do it. So why not let them?

Now, I agree with you if, in fact, they said, well, you know, you broke it, now you fix it and wash their hands, but that's not what's happening. The Indian government has said that if, in fact, this becomes a U.N. authorization, they would be willing to contribute a whole division. That's 15,000 troops. That's almost as many as we've gotten from these other 30 countries that have contributed small amounts of troops.

VAUSE: And James, I want to ask you, how much of the talk of pulling troops out, of the exit strategy of handing responsibility over to this international force, how much of that is being driven by the domestic agenda here in the United States? It's coming up to an election cycle. The president needs some good news. He needs to get out of what many people are now starting to talk about, a quagmire in Iraq.

CARAFANO: Well, I don't think that that's really going to affect it one way or another. I mean, the real key here, again, is to setting up the Iraqi government, standing up the Iraqi security forces, and doing that as quickly as possible. I have no opposition to U.N. participation as long as it doesn't slow down that train, because that's the real key to success.

VAUSE: OK. James Carafano there in Washington, and also Lawrence Korb, thank you for joining us on CNN and giving us your thoughts on how to make Iraq secure. No doubt, many people are asking that question as well.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com