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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview With Diana Henriques

Aired August 31, 2003 - 08:14   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: It is back-to-school time, and you know what that means. Students across the U.S. will be getting out their number 2 pencils to take those standardized tests. These tests can have a huge impact on your kids' educational future. The documentary that you just saw a little clip of, "Making the Grade," will air Tuesday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern on the Discovery Times Channel, and it takes a look at the reliability of these tests.
Diana Henriques is a "New York Times" financial reporter who did an in-depth investigation into the testing industry. Diana, thanks for being here this morning.

DIANA HENRIQUES, "NEW YORK TIMES": I'm glad to be here, Heidi -- thanks.

COLLINS: I want to ask you, what was the purpose of this investigation? What did you hope to learn throughout all of this?

HENRIQUES: Well, it had struck us that an awful lot of the debate about American testing had focused on the philosophical questions, should we be doing all this testing? I'm a business reporter and it occurred to me that a more important question was, can we do all this testing? Because although educators and politicians are the ones who develop the public policy around testing, it's a small industry of highly specialized companies that have to cash that check.

They've got to deliver the goods. And it's an extremely precise business that has come under increasing pressures over the past several years. In fact, the past four years have been the most error- plagued years in the testing industry's recent history.

COLLINS: What do you mean by that, Diana?

HENRIQUES: Well, these companies have to compress a great deal of their work in a small period of time. And inevitably, as with any human endeavor, errors happen. We've seen errors across the country in scoring the bubble sheets, the computer was programmed incorrectly, essay questions have been inaccurately scored, or the tests have been inappropriately compared to the previous year's tests.

COLLINS: In fact, if you don't mind, I wanted to just give people an idea of what you mean by these errors. And you have a couple of examples here that have been included in the research, talking about a student in St. Paul, Minnesota who failed a math test twice. His father took issue with this because he went and did the work and found that, well, in fact there was an astounding mistake. The answer sheet was wrong six different places, and the result of this: 336 kids didn't graduate.

HENRIQUES: Well, 336 seniors were effected. Now, once they finally sorted out the final numbers, it looked like about 50 should have graduated and didn't. The test company that made that error wound up settling a lawsuit over that case out of court for $7 million. There was -- that was probably one of the worst errors in the testing industry's history, but not the only one.

There's a similar sort of error in Nevada that resulted in the settlement for the students there. There was an enormous problem with the testing program in Georgia just this past spring that effected 600,000 students. It's not uncommon, although it doesn't happen every day, but it's not uncommon for testing industries to develop quality control problems. It happens in every human business.

COLLINS: So what's to be done here? I know you've spoken with a lot of education officials, including Rod Paige. I'm wondering if you can tell us what his thoughts are on that? We also have a little bit of sound I want to listen to in just a minute.

HENRIQUES: Well, Secretary Page has said that he feels that the accountability that underscores the new No Child Left Behind law extends to the testing industry as well. He's put them on notice that they have to come through. And I think they really are trying to come through.

The problem is one of capacity and speed. The new laws require these companies to move so quickly to get these tests designed, delivered, scored, and analyzed in a very small window of time, and the testing industry itself is concerned about that compression of deadlines.

COLLINS: So what is the solution here? I mean, there's obviously a problem. We just talked about all of these errors and what has happened over the past three to four years. The No Child Left Behind idea, President Bush's and the secretary of education, Rod Paige's, trying to do something? Something needs to be done? It's just going to take time?

HENRIQUES: Well, I think there needs in the whole public debate about testing -- there needs to be a greater recognition of the simple logistical problem of doing this. Speeding up the deadlines isn't the answer. Haste in this case, makes errors.

And the public needs to be aware that when they're debating testing, there's an industry that has to deliver on that debate. And they need to listen more carefully and be more realistic about what that industry can deliver and when it can deliver it.

COLLINS: All right. Unfortunately, Diana Henriques, this is all of the time that we have today. We certainly do appreciate your insight and look forward to this documentary coming up on the Discovery Times Channel on Tuesday

HENRIQUES: Thank you for your time.

COLLINS: Thanks so much.

HENRIQUES: Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired August 31, 2003 - 08:14   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: It is back-to-school time, and you know what that means. Students across the U.S. will be getting out their number 2 pencils to take those standardized tests. These tests can have a huge impact on your kids' educational future. The documentary that you just saw a little clip of, "Making the Grade," will air Tuesday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern on the Discovery Times Channel, and it takes a look at the reliability of these tests.
Diana Henriques is a "New York Times" financial reporter who did an in-depth investigation into the testing industry. Diana, thanks for being here this morning.

DIANA HENRIQUES, "NEW YORK TIMES": I'm glad to be here, Heidi -- thanks.

COLLINS: I want to ask you, what was the purpose of this investigation? What did you hope to learn throughout all of this?

HENRIQUES: Well, it had struck us that an awful lot of the debate about American testing had focused on the philosophical questions, should we be doing all this testing? I'm a business reporter and it occurred to me that a more important question was, can we do all this testing? Because although educators and politicians are the ones who develop the public policy around testing, it's a small industry of highly specialized companies that have to cash that check.

They've got to deliver the goods. And it's an extremely precise business that has come under increasing pressures over the past several years. In fact, the past four years have been the most error- plagued years in the testing industry's recent history.

COLLINS: What do you mean by that, Diana?

HENRIQUES: Well, these companies have to compress a great deal of their work in a small period of time. And inevitably, as with any human endeavor, errors happen. We've seen errors across the country in scoring the bubble sheets, the computer was programmed incorrectly, essay questions have been inaccurately scored, or the tests have been inappropriately compared to the previous year's tests.

COLLINS: In fact, if you don't mind, I wanted to just give people an idea of what you mean by these errors. And you have a couple of examples here that have been included in the research, talking about a student in St. Paul, Minnesota who failed a math test twice. His father took issue with this because he went and did the work and found that, well, in fact there was an astounding mistake. The answer sheet was wrong six different places, and the result of this: 336 kids didn't graduate.

HENRIQUES: Well, 336 seniors were effected. Now, once they finally sorted out the final numbers, it looked like about 50 should have graduated and didn't. The test company that made that error wound up settling a lawsuit over that case out of court for $7 million. There was -- that was probably one of the worst errors in the testing industry's history, but not the only one.

There's a similar sort of error in Nevada that resulted in the settlement for the students there. There was an enormous problem with the testing program in Georgia just this past spring that effected 600,000 students. It's not uncommon, although it doesn't happen every day, but it's not uncommon for testing industries to develop quality control problems. It happens in every human business.

COLLINS: So what's to be done here? I know you've spoken with a lot of education officials, including Rod Paige. I'm wondering if you can tell us what his thoughts are on that? We also have a little bit of sound I want to listen to in just a minute.

HENRIQUES: Well, Secretary Page has said that he feels that the accountability that underscores the new No Child Left Behind law extends to the testing industry as well. He's put them on notice that they have to come through. And I think they really are trying to come through.

The problem is one of capacity and speed. The new laws require these companies to move so quickly to get these tests designed, delivered, scored, and analyzed in a very small window of time, and the testing industry itself is concerned about that compression of deadlines.

COLLINS: So what is the solution here? I mean, there's obviously a problem. We just talked about all of these errors and what has happened over the past three to four years. The No Child Left Behind idea, President Bush's and the secretary of education, Rod Paige's, trying to do something? Something needs to be done? It's just going to take time?

HENRIQUES: Well, I think there needs in the whole public debate about testing -- there needs to be a greater recognition of the simple logistical problem of doing this. Speeding up the deadlines isn't the answer. Haste in this case, makes errors.

And the public needs to be aware that when they're debating testing, there's an industry that has to deliver on that debate. And they need to listen more carefully and be more realistic about what that industry can deliver and when it can deliver it.

COLLINS: All right. Unfortunately, Diana Henriques, this is all of the time that we have today. We certainly do appreciate your insight and look forward to this documentary coming up on the Discovery Times Channel on Tuesday

HENRIQUES: Thank you for your time.

COLLINS: Thanks so much.

HENRIQUES: Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com