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CNN Sunday Morning

Israel Bombs Alleged Syrian Training Camp

Aired October 05, 2003 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: And we begin this hour's coverage in the Middle East with the latest on Israel's air strike.
And the target, it says, was a training camp for, quote, many terror organizations. The camp was deep inside Syria and is the latest round in the escalating violence in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. And many fear it could trigger more violence.

CNN's Jerrold Kessel is in Jerusalem with more on what is a developing story -- Jerrold.

JERROLD KESSEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Developing, I think, indeed, is the operative word. But, which way? Not quite sure.

Was this a one-time Israeli operation, a message as the Israelis call it, or is it part of a whole new campaign that could widen Israel's war -- counter war, the Israelis say, against the Palestinian militant -- Palestinian terror organizations as the Israelis and the United States designate groups like Islamic Jihad and Hamas?

But certainly it came in the wake of that devastating suicide bombing in the northern Israeli city of Haifa yesterday, in which a Palestinian woman from Jenin on the West Bank killed 19 people, many of them children. Whole families indeed, grandparents, their children and their grandchildren, and wounded more than 50, several of whom are still fighting for their lives, including a number of children.

And the Israeli action, a devastating response in a sense in that it could send shockwaves around the area.

Israel had reacted earlier last night with two, you could call them minor strikes in Gaza, where no one was killed. Israel said it was targeting weapons depots of the militant organizations.

But then as everyone was possibly talking about would Israel move against Yasser Arafat to remove the Palestinian leader from the area, Israel announcing that it had attacked this base in Syria, northwest of the Syrian capital, Damascus. The first time there's been a direct military confrontation between Israel and Syria on Syrian soil since the 1973 Arab Israel war, which the anniversary of which Israelis have been marking now because it coincides with the start of Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, the holiest, most solemn day on the Jewish and Israeli calendar.

Israel says the space was a training base for various organizations, terror organizations, funded by Iran, say the Israelis. And now Syria says it has no bases operating on its territory. It will apply to the United Nations Security Council for condemnation of the Israeli action -- Martin.

SAVIDGE: Jerrold Kessel, reporting from Jerusalem. Let's move on now.

Rula Amin is joining us on the telephone. She has arrived in the Syrian capital of Damascus.

Rula, is there reaction?

RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Martin, there is no official reaction yet. But we did hear from unofficial Syrian sources who confirmed that Syria will go to the U.N. They will ask that there will be a session -- an urgent session for the United Nations Security Council to discuss what they termed as a violation by Israel.

And so far, we do know that Syrian officials have been meeting all day long, but no official reaction.

We did hear, however, from unofficial Syrian sources and from people who report the Jihad movement who did say that, and denied that what was hit was a training camp. Some were saying that these were actually Palestinian refugees, some of them connected to leftist groups but had nothing to do with al-Jihad or Hamas.

We also heard from a spokesman from Jihad, from Beirut in Lebanon, who denied that anything that has to do with al-Jihad had been hit. They deny that there is any kind of militant activities for al-Jihad in Syria -- Martin.

SAVIDGE: Rula, any indication on the damage that was done or whether there were casualties on the ground?

AMIN: No, Martin, we have not heard from the Syrians yet regarding their estimation and their version of what has happened and what was hit. We do know that nobody had been able to take pictures of what was hit of this post.

We actually have heard conflicting reports on where this target is. Some Israelis are saying it's to the north of Damascus. We're hearing from Jihad spokespeople, saying that it's actually to the west of Damascus, very close to the Syrian Lebanese border.

But we are still trying to get an official reaction from the Syrians -- Martin.

SAVIDGE: Rula Amin on the ground in Damascus, Syria. Thanks very much for that update. We will stay closely in touch with you -- Kelly.

KELLY WALLACE, ANCHOR: Shortly after the attack, CNN spoke to Israeli government spokesman Dr. Ra'anan Gissin in a telephone interview conducted by our sister network, CNN International.

Gissin said the Israeli offensive sends a message to Syria and Iran to end their support for terrorism against Israel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. RA'ANAN GISSIN, ISRAELI SPOKESMAN: The attack that took place in Syria was against a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) which is deep in Syrian territory and was in a base called Ansakt, OK, about ten miles north of Damascus.

And this base serves to train all the terrorist organizations which are still operating in Syria, despite the fact that Secretary of State Colin Powell has called on Syria to oust these terrorist organizations, their training camps and their headquarters.

And so, we will not tolerate, I think this is a clear message, we will not tolerate the continuation of this axis of terror between Tehran, Damascus, and Gaza to continue to operate and kill innocent men, women and children. And therefore, the operation that took place early morning today was intended to send that message both to Syria as well as to the leaders of the Islamic Jihad and Hamas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: That was Israeli government spokesman Dr. Ra'anan Gissin in an interview that aired earlier this morning on CNN.

Now some perspective on this latest Middle East flash point through the eyes of an expert. Jon Alterman is the director of Middle East programs for the Center for Strategic and International Studies. He joins us from Washington.

Jon, good to see you.

JON ALTERMAN, DIRECTOR OF MIDDLE EAST PROGRAMS, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: It's good to see you, Kelly.

WALLACE: This seems like a rewriting of rules that have been in place for more than two decades. What do you make of it?

ALTERMAN: I'm not sure it's so much a rewriting. The Israelis are trying to look for something symbolic. They've been building the fence to both do something symbolic to protect their populations and also to deal with terror.

Somebody came from across the West Bank and had a bombing in Haifa. I think they're seeing a political need, as well as a security need, to be more aggressive. And they're going after the Syrians directly. I don't expect the Syrians to retaliate very strongly at all.

WALLACE: Do you think, then, that this is an isolated incident, rather than an escalation of the war on terror?

ALTERMAN: It is my sense it is isolated. The Syrians have been a little bit on the defensive because of what's happening in Iraq and the charges of what they're doing in Iraq and also because the U.S. is putting pressure on them diplomatically. I think the Israelis think they can send a signal. The only question is when you attack one of these training bases, as indeed the U.S. did with the al Qaeda base in Afghanistan after the African embassy bombings, it sort of highlights the fact there aren't very many good targets to attack.

You can attack one of these terrorist bases, but do you stop the terrorism? Most of the time you really don't, because the whole nature of terrorism is that you don't have a lot of infrastructure to attack. There's no return address.

WALLACE: We have not heard any official word from the Bush White House yet. But there's been a lot of speculation that Israel would not have gone forward with this, had they not gotten a nod from the White House.

What could the White House say at this point to help tamper down the situation?

ALTERMAN: The White House now is going to be calling for restraint.

I actually have a difference with the idea that the Israelis would have asked permission from the White House. One of the things we've seen, especially over the last year, is the Israelis taking measure of the White House, and then doing what they want.

We saw this, I think, on the border for the security barrier. We saw this on the decision to build new settlements.

I think the Israelis are looking to the White House to get a feel of the temperature, but they're not asking permission. I would be very, very surprised if the Israelis either asked permission or even tipped off the White House to this action before it happened.

WALLACE: The rhetoric out of Israel sounds strikingly familiar to rhetoric we have heard out of the Bush administration, talking about an axis of terror. We heard Israeli officials name Tehran, Damascus, Gaza as part of that axis of terror and they're not, they say, at least, ruling out other attacks. They will do what they have to to protect citizens.

What do you make of that? I mean, I know you said that you thought this was an isolated incident, but those sound like fighting words to me.

ALTERMAN: They are fighting words. The Israelis are quite consciously trying to link their war on terror with the U.S. war on terror. They've been doing this since September 11. The use of rhetoric is not accidental at all.

But what he said -- Dr. Gissin talked about the axis of terror between Tehran and Damascus and Gaza, but the suicide bomber came from Jenin.

You know, the problem is that the Israelis are fighting a much more widespread battle. They're not sure where the threats are, with all their intelligence. They're not able to protect their population completely.

I think one of the problems that Ariel Sharon is going to be having over the next year or so is saying how come the terrorism isn't going away. We're being tougher, being tougher, being tough, but the terrorism isn't going away. Right now there's not a political alternative in Israel to talk about something else.

But Israel is fighting an enemy that's often very, very hard to see and it's hard to see how to influence it. The wall is the Sharon government's effort to say, well, at least we're doing something. And if the wall doesn't work, they have a lot of problems.

WALLACE: All right. Jon, we'll end it there. Jon Alterman from the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Thanks for joining us this on Sunday morning -- Martin.

ALTERMAN: Good to see you, Kelly. Thank you.

SAVIDGE: What's the reaction from the White House about this morning's events in the Middle East? Well, here to tell us more is CNN's Kathleen Koch. She is at the White House.

Good morning to you, Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Martin, no reaction yet this morning from the White House. President Bush did attend church here in Washington, D.C. And reporters shouted a question at him, but he did not respond.

The president did, in a statement yesterday, though, react to the attack in Haifa, calling it, quote, "a vicious act of terrorism."

And the U.S. traditionally has supported Israel's right to defend itself, that while all the time, of course, reminding Israel that the effect that its actions can have on the fragile road map to peace in the Middle East.

Now the Bush administration -- Israel has been applying consistent pressure on Syria to get it to change its ways, Undersecretary of State John Bolton in September, testifying before Congress, calling Syria, quote, "a rogue state," that it supported terrorist groups and was trying to develop weapons of mass destruction.

At this point, though, Secretary of State Colin Powell has visited Damascus in May. He stopped short of calling for economic sanctions against the country. He did announced, then, that Syria had agreed at that point to shut down local branches of organizations like Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

But just a month later, in July, Powell complained that Damascus had done very little, calling its efforts, quote, "totally inadequate." Of course, the U.S. has also been very upset about Syria's actions in Iraq before the war started there. The Pentagon accused Syria of allowing military weapons to flow in to help support Saddam Hussein. And that since the war the most serious fighting has ended. The Pentagon has accused Iraq -- has accused Syria, excuse me, of allowing militant fighters to flow across its borders, to turn a blind eye to that and let the fighters come in and attack U.S. forces there.

So even if Syria does, indeed, end up lodging some kind of complaint, a formal complaint before the U.N. Security Council, there's little expectation that they will get a sympathetic ear from the United States -- Martin.

SAVIDGE: Kathleen Koch at the White House, we still wait for reaction. Thanks very much. We'll stay close to you, as well.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired October 5, 2003 - 09:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: And we begin this hour's coverage in the Middle East with the latest on Israel's air strike.
And the target, it says, was a training camp for, quote, many terror organizations. The camp was deep inside Syria and is the latest round in the escalating violence in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. And many fear it could trigger more violence.

CNN's Jerrold Kessel is in Jerusalem with more on what is a developing story -- Jerrold.

JERROLD KESSEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Developing, I think, indeed, is the operative word. But, which way? Not quite sure.

Was this a one-time Israeli operation, a message as the Israelis call it, or is it part of a whole new campaign that could widen Israel's war -- counter war, the Israelis say, against the Palestinian militant -- Palestinian terror organizations as the Israelis and the United States designate groups like Islamic Jihad and Hamas?

But certainly it came in the wake of that devastating suicide bombing in the northern Israeli city of Haifa yesterday, in which a Palestinian woman from Jenin on the West Bank killed 19 people, many of them children. Whole families indeed, grandparents, their children and their grandchildren, and wounded more than 50, several of whom are still fighting for their lives, including a number of children.

And the Israeli action, a devastating response in a sense in that it could send shockwaves around the area.

Israel had reacted earlier last night with two, you could call them minor strikes in Gaza, where no one was killed. Israel said it was targeting weapons depots of the militant organizations.

But then as everyone was possibly talking about would Israel move against Yasser Arafat to remove the Palestinian leader from the area, Israel announcing that it had attacked this base in Syria, northwest of the Syrian capital, Damascus. The first time there's been a direct military confrontation between Israel and Syria on Syrian soil since the 1973 Arab Israel war, which the anniversary of which Israelis have been marking now because it coincides with the start of Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, the holiest, most solemn day on the Jewish and Israeli calendar.

Israel says the space was a training base for various organizations, terror organizations, funded by Iran, say the Israelis. And now Syria says it has no bases operating on its territory. It will apply to the United Nations Security Council for condemnation of the Israeli action -- Martin.

SAVIDGE: Jerrold Kessel, reporting from Jerusalem. Let's move on now.

Rula Amin is joining us on the telephone. She has arrived in the Syrian capital of Damascus.

Rula, is there reaction?

RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Martin, there is no official reaction yet. But we did hear from unofficial Syrian sources who confirmed that Syria will go to the U.N. They will ask that there will be a session -- an urgent session for the United Nations Security Council to discuss what they termed as a violation by Israel.

And so far, we do know that Syrian officials have been meeting all day long, but no official reaction.

We did hear, however, from unofficial Syrian sources and from people who report the Jihad movement who did say that, and denied that what was hit was a training camp. Some were saying that these were actually Palestinian refugees, some of them connected to leftist groups but had nothing to do with al-Jihad or Hamas.

We also heard from a spokesman from Jihad, from Beirut in Lebanon, who denied that anything that has to do with al-Jihad had been hit. They deny that there is any kind of militant activities for al-Jihad in Syria -- Martin.

SAVIDGE: Rula, any indication on the damage that was done or whether there were casualties on the ground?

AMIN: No, Martin, we have not heard from the Syrians yet regarding their estimation and their version of what has happened and what was hit. We do know that nobody had been able to take pictures of what was hit of this post.

We actually have heard conflicting reports on where this target is. Some Israelis are saying it's to the north of Damascus. We're hearing from Jihad spokespeople, saying that it's actually to the west of Damascus, very close to the Syrian Lebanese border.

But we are still trying to get an official reaction from the Syrians -- Martin.

SAVIDGE: Rula Amin on the ground in Damascus, Syria. Thanks very much for that update. We will stay closely in touch with you -- Kelly.

KELLY WALLACE, ANCHOR: Shortly after the attack, CNN spoke to Israeli government spokesman Dr. Ra'anan Gissin in a telephone interview conducted by our sister network, CNN International.

Gissin said the Israeli offensive sends a message to Syria and Iran to end their support for terrorism against Israel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. RA'ANAN GISSIN, ISRAELI SPOKESMAN: The attack that took place in Syria was against a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) which is deep in Syrian territory and was in a base called Ansakt, OK, about ten miles north of Damascus.

And this base serves to train all the terrorist organizations which are still operating in Syria, despite the fact that Secretary of State Colin Powell has called on Syria to oust these terrorist organizations, their training camps and their headquarters.

And so, we will not tolerate, I think this is a clear message, we will not tolerate the continuation of this axis of terror between Tehran, Damascus, and Gaza to continue to operate and kill innocent men, women and children. And therefore, the operation that took place early morning today was intended to send that message both to Syria as well as to the leaders of the Islamic Jihad and Hamas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: That was Israeli government spokesman Dr. Ra'anan Gissin in an interview that aired earlier this morning on CNN.

Now some perspective on this latest Middle East flash point through the eyes of an expert. Jon Alterman is the director of Middle East programs for the Center for Strategic and International Studies. He joins us from Washington.

Jon, good to see you.

JON ALTERMAN, DIRECTOR OF MIDDLE EAST PROGRAMS, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: It's good to see you, Kelly.

WALLACE: This seems like a rewriting of rules that have been in place for more than two decades. What do you make of it?

ALTERMAN: I'm not sure it's so much a rewriting. The Israelis are trying to look for something symbolic. They've been building the fence to both do something symbolic to protect their populations and also to deal with terror.

Somebody came from across the West Bank and had a bombing in Haifa. I think they're seeing a political need, as well as a security need, to be more aggressive. And they're going after the Syrians directly. I don't expect the Syrians to retaliate very strongly at all.

WALLACE: Do you think, then, that this is an isolated incident, rather than an escalation of the war on terror?

ALTERMAN: It is my sense it is isolated. The Syrians have been a little bit on the defensive because of what's happening in Iraq and the charges of what they're doing in Iraq and also because the U.S. is putting pressure on them diplomatically. I think the Israelis think they can send a signal. The only question is when you attack one of these training bases, as indeed the U.S. did with the al Qaeda base in Afghanistan after the African embassy bombings, it sort of highlights the fact there aren't very many good targets to attack.

You can attack one of these terrorist bases, but do you stop the terrorism? Most of the time you really don't, because the whole nature of terrorism is that you don't have a lot of infrastructure to attack. There's no return address.

WALLACE: We have not heard any official word from the Bush White House yet. But there's been a lot of speculation that Israel would not have gone forward with this, had they not gotten a nod from the White House.

What could the White House say at this point to help tamper down the situation?

ALTERMAN: The White House now is going to be calling for restraint.

I actually have a difference with the idea that the Israelis would have asked permission from the White House. One of the things we've seen, especially over the last year, is the Israelis taking measure of the White House, and then doing what they want.

We saw this, I think, on the border for the security barrier. We saw this on the decision to build new settlements.

I think the Israelis are looking to the White House to get a feel of the temperature, but they're not asking permission. I would be very, very surprised if the Israelis either asked permission or even tipped off the White House to this action before it happened.

WALLACE: The rhetoric out of Israel sounds strikingly familiar to rhetoric we have heard out of the Bush administration, talking about an axis of terror. We heard Israeli officials name Tehran, Damascus, Gaza as part of that axis of terror and they're not, they say, at least, ruling out other attacks. They will do what they have to to protect citizens.

What do you make of that? I mean, I know you said that you thought this was an isolated incident, but those sound like fighting words to me.

ALTERMAN: They are fighting words. The Israelis are quite consciously trying to link their war on terror with the U.S. war on terror. They've been doing this since September 11. The use of rhetoric is not accidental at all.

But what he said -- Dr. Gissin talked about the axis of terror between Tehran and Damascus and Gaza, but the suicide bomber came from Jenin.

You know, the problem is that the Israelis are fighting a much more widespread battle. They're not sure where the threats are, with all their intelligence. They're not able to protect their population completely.

I think one of the problems that Ariel Sharon is going to be having over the next year or so is saying how come the terrorism isn't going away. We're being tougher, being tougher, being tough, but the terrorism isn't going away. Right now there's not a political alternative in Israel to talk about something else.

But Israel is fighting an enemy that's often very, very hard to see and it's hard to see how to influence it. The wall is the Sharon government's effort to say, well, at least we're doing something. And if the wall doesn't work, they have a lot of problems.

WALLACE: All right. Jon, we'll end it there. Jon Alterman from the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Thanks for joining us this on Sunday morning -- Martin.

ALTERMAN: Good to see you, Kelly. Thank you.

SAVIDGE: What's the reaction from the White House about this morning's events in the Middle East? Well, here to tell us more is CNN's Kathleen Koch. She is at the White House.

Good morning to you, Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Martin, no reaction yet this morning from the White House. President Bush did attend church here in Washington, D.C. And reporters shouted a question at him, but he did not respond.

The president did, in a statement yesterday, though, react to the attack in Haifa, calling it, quote, "a vicious act of terrorism."

And the U.S. traditionally has supported Israel's right to defend itself, that while all the time, of course, reminding Israel that the effect that its actions can have on the fragile road map to peace in the Middle East.

Now the Bush administration -- Israel has been applying consistent pressure on Syria to get it to change its ways, Undersecretary of State John Bolton in September, testifying before Congress, calling Syria, quote, "a rogue state," that it supported terrorist groups and was trying to develop weapons of mass destruction.

At this point, though, Secretary of State Colin Powell has visited Damascus in May. He stopped short of calling for economic sanctions against the country. He did announced, then, that Syria had agreed at that point to shut down local branches of organizations like Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

But just a month later, in July, Powell complained that Damascus had done very little, calling its efforts, quote, "totally inadequate." Of course, the U.S. has also been very upset about Syria's actions in Iraq before the war started there. The Pentagon accused Syria of allowing military weapons to flow in to help support Saddam Hussein. And that since the war the most serious fighting has ended. The Pentagon has accused Iraq -- has accused Syria, excuse me, of allowing militant fighters to flow across its borders, to turn a blind eye to that and let the fighters come in and attack U.S. forces there.

So even if Syria does, indeed, end up lodging some kind of complaint, a formal complaint before the U.N. Security Council, there's little expectation that they will get a sympathetic ear from the United States -- Martin.

SAVIDGE: Kathleen Koch at the White House, we still wait for reaction. Thanks very much. We'll stay close to you, as well.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com