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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview With Steven Baines, Mark Tooley

Aired November 02, 2003 - 07:49   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: It is time to debate now over today's controversial move by the Episcopal church to consecrate its first openly gay bishop. We have two guests on opposite sides of this impassioned issue. Mark Tooley is with the Institute for Religion and Democracy, also known as IRD. The organization is opposed to having a gay bishop in the Episcopal church. And the Reverend Steven Baines is with the People for the American Way, which supports the consecration of the Reverend Gene Robinson.
Welcome to both of you.

STEVEN BAINES, REV., : Thank you.

MARK TOOLEY, INSTITUTE FOR RELIGION AND DEMOCRACY: Good to be with you.

COSTELLO: All right, do you think, first of all, that this ceremony will go smoothly? Let's start with you, Mark.

TOOLEY: I assume it will go smoothly. There are several people who will make protests during the ceremony, which the ceremony itself provides for. But the ceremony will go forward. And those who are opposed to this ceremony will have their own service at a church close by.

COSTELLO: What do you think they'll say, Mark?

TOOLEY: That the ordination of the church's first openly homosexual bishop will go against the message of the scriptures, go against 2000 years of tradition for the Christian church, go against the teachings of the worldwide Anglican communion. And the ordination will also separate the Episcopal church, not only from the Anglican communion around the world, but from probably 95 percent of the rest of Christianity around the world.

COSTELLO: Steven, will Bishop Robinson get a chance to rebut these people speaking out against his consecration?

BAINES: I think he will demonstrate that by the way he carries out the office of bishop. Listen, this is a wonderful day for Episcopalians across the country. It's a wonderful day for Christians.

The motto of the Episcopal church is the Episcopal church welcomes you. And today, we are seeing that you define a historic manner today with the consecration of Bishop elect Robinson. The facts are simple here. He was duly elected overwhelmingly by the people who know him best, his own diocese of New Hampshire. He was overwhelmingly confirmed at the general convention this summer by nearly a 2 to 1 margin.

And this is a story that is about the epitome of the gospel, that being about inclusion and the unity of the church, despite differences. And I think you're going to see Bishop Robinson lead the Episcopal diocese of New Hampshire extraordinarily well and show how we can come together and be one in the church, despite differences.

COSTELLO: But isn't there disunity within the church because of this? I mean, you can't ignore that.

TOOLEY: Well, there is. And the Episcopal church has already lost a third of its membership over the last 35 years. I suspect that trend is now going to accelerate with whole diocese pulling out, with whole congregations pulling out, and with many of the overseas primaries, in effect, discommunioning or disassociating themselves with the Episcopal church in the U.S.

So it's going to be a very sad and fractioned situation for the Episcopal church.

COSTELLO: And Gene Robinson -- let me interrupt for just a moment. Gene Robinson himself, you know, he realizes this. Let's hear what he had to say earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GENE ROBINSON: This call is not just from God, but this call is from the people of New Hampshire. The clergy and laity of the diocese of New Hampshire have called me to be their bishop. So I'm not just responding to my own call that I feel from God, but their call to me to me, to be their bishop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: And you know, Mark, I remember that interview. He also went on today. He searched deep within himself to come up with the reason he's accepting this. He says it has nothing to do with ambition. He really believes that he's answering a call from God.

BAINES: And that's true. I want to say that -- Carol, that you know, these people who claim that there's going to be a schism in the church, these were the same voices that claimed the same thing when we decided to ordain women to the priesthood, when we elevated the first woman to bishop. You heard the same voices.

And the fact is the church across this country, people are just in a few hours are going to go. The foundation is there. People are going to worship. And finally, we're going to see that the way the right and people like Mr. Tooley have painted gay and lesbian people is just utterly false, that we are devout, sincere people of faith, and that this man has searched his heart and is responding to a call of God. COSTELLO: But there really is a deep rift among Episcopalians, especially overseas. In fact, they're threatening to split from the American Episcopalian church. How do you repair that?

TOOLEY: Well, it's not going to be repaired, I don't think. And this is a much deeper theological issue than the ordination of women was 25 years ago. And I think that what's going to happen is that the Episcopal church is going to fracture. And probably a new Anglican communion will emerge in North America. And I have great hope that communion is going to become much more mainstream than the Episcopal church.

COSTELLO: On the other hand, Mark, this issue isn't going to go away.

TOOLEY: No, it's a part of American culture. And what goes on in the secular culture, inevitably affects the church. But the church's job is not to succumb to whatever is fashionable or trendy for the moment or the year or the decade, but to lift up that which is timelessly true, and that which is founded the gospel. And I think that the majority of Episcopalians ultimately will come down on the side of that which Christianity has always held to be true for the last 2000 years.

COSTELLO: So Steven, do you think this is just a fashionable issue right now, a trend that will go away?

BAINES: It's certainly not a fashionable issue and not a trend. The fact is gay and lesbian people have been serving Christ's church for centuries. And this is a time that the table of God is finally made wide open for all people, all of God's children.

You know, what's interesting. Martin Luther King, Jr. said that the moral arch of the universe bends towards -- is long, but it bends towards justice. And today, we are seeing that fulfilled by the consecration of bishop elect Gene Robinson.

COSTELLO: And we have to end it there. Thank you both for joining us this morning, the Reverend Steven Baines with the People for the American Way and Mark Tooley with the Institute for Religion and Democracy. We thank you.

BAINES: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired November 2, 2003 - 07:49   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: It is time to debate now over today's controversial move by the Episcopal church to consecrate its first openly gay bishop. We have two guests on opposite sides of this impassioned issue. Mark Tooley is with the Institute for Religion and Democracy, also known as IRD. The organization is opposed to having a gay bishop in the Episcopal church. And the Reverend Steven Baines is with the People for the American Way, which supports the consecration of the Reverend Gene Robinson.
Welcome to both of you.

STEVEN BAINES, REV., : Thank you.

MARK TOOLEY, INSTITUTE FOR RELIGION AND DEMOCRACY: Good to be with you.

COSTELLO: All right, do you think, first of all, that this ceremony will go smoothly? Let's start with you, Mark.

TOOLEY: I assume it will go smoothly. There are several people who will make protests during the ceremony, which the ceremony itself provides for. But the ceremony will go forward. And those who are opposed to this ceremony will have their own service at a church close by.

COSTELLO: What do you think they'll say, Mark?

TOOLEY: That the ordination of the church's first openly homosexual bishop will go against the message of the scriptures, go against 2000 years of tradition for the Christian church, go against the teachings of the worldwide Anglican communion. And the ordination will also separate the Episcopal church, not only from the Anglican communion around the world, but from probably 95 percent of the rest of Christianity around the world.

COSTELLO: Steven, will Bishop Robinson get a chance to rebut these people speaking out against his consecration?

BAINES: I think he will demonstrate that by the way he carries out the office of bishop. Listen, this is a wonderful day for Episcopalians across the country. It's a wonderful day for Christians.

The motto of the Episcopal church is the Episcopal church welcomes you. And today, we are seeing that you define a historic manner today with the consecration of Bishop elect Robinson. The facts are simple here. He was duly elected overwhelmingly by the people who know him best, his own diocese of New Hampshire. He was overwhelmingly confirmed at the general convention this summer by nearly a 2 to 1 margin.

And this is a story that is about the epitome of the gospel, that being about inclusion and the unity of the church, despite differences. And I think you're going to see Bishop Robinson lead the Episcopal diocese of New Hampshire extraordinarily well and show how we can come together and be one in the church, despite differences.

COSTELLO: But isn't there disunity within the church because of this? I mean, you can't ignore that.

TOOLEY: Well, there is. And the Episcopal church has already lost a third of its membership over the last 35 years. I suspect that trend is now going to accelerate with whole diocese pulling out, with whole congregations pulling out, and with many of the overseas primaries, in effect, discommunioning or disassociating themselves with the Episcopal church in the U.S.

So it's going to be a very sad and fractioned situation for the Episcopal church.

COSTELLO: And Gene Robinson -- let me interrupt for just a moment. Gene Robinson himself, you know, he realizes this. Let's hear what he had to say earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GENE ROBINSON: This call is not just from God, but this call is from the people of New Hampshire. The clergy and laity of the diocese of New Hampshire have called me to be their bishop. So I'm not just responding to my own call that I feel from God, but their call to me to me, to be their bishop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: And you know, Mark, I remember that interview. He also went on today. He searched deep within himself to come up with the reason he's accepting this. He says it has nothing to do with ambition. He really believes that he's answering a call from God.

BAINES: And that's true. I want to say that -- Carol, that you know, these people who claim that there's going to be a schism in the church, these were the same voices that claimed the same thing when we decided to ordain women to the priesthood, when we elevated the first woman to bishop. You heard the same voices.

And the fact is the church across this country, people are just in a few hours are going to go. The foundation is there. People are going to worship. And finally, we're going to see that the way the right and people like Mr. Tooley have painted gay and lesbian people is just utterly false, that we are devout, sincere people of faith, and that this man has searched his heart and is responding to a call of God. COSTELLO: But there really is a deep rift among Episcopalians, especially overseas. In fact, they're threatening to split from the American Episcopalian church. How do you repair that?

TOOLEY: Well, it's not going to be repaired, I don't think. And this is a much deeper theological issue than the ordination of women was 25 years ago. And I think that what's going to happen is that the Episcopal church is going to fracture. And probably a new Anglican communion will emerge in North America. And I have great hope that communion is going to become much more mainstream than the Episcopal church.

COSTELLO: On the other hand, Mark, this issue isn't going to go away.

TOOLEY: No, it's a part of American culture. And what goes on in the secular culture, inevitably affects the church. But the church's job is not to succumb to whatever is fashionable or trendy for the moment or the year or the decade, but to lift up that which is timelessly true, and that which is founded the gospel. And I think that the majority of Episcopalians ultimately will come down on the side of that which Christianity has always held to be true for the last 2000 years.

COSTELLO: So Steven, do you think this is just a fashionable issue right now, a trend that will go away?

BAINES: It's certainly not a fashionable issue and not a trend. The fact is gay and lesbian people have been serving Christ's church for centuries. And this is a time that the table of God is finally made wide open for all people, all of God's children.

You know, what's interesting. Martin Luther King, Jr. said that the moral arch of the universe bends towards -- is long, but it bends towards justice. And today, we are seeing that fulfilled by the consecration of bishop elect Gene Robinson.

COSTELLO: And we have to end it there. Thank you both for joining us this morning, the Reverend Steven Baines with the People for the American Way and Mark Tooley with the Institute for Religion and Democracy. We thank you.

BAINES: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com