Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Sunday Morning

Interview With Fawaz Gerges

Aired December 21, 2003 - 07:12   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: According to a U.S. official, a supposed new Osama bin Laden tape is just a rerun. The audiotape was broadcast yesterday on the Arabic language network, Al Arabiya, but had originally been heard on Al Jazeera back in October. On the tape, the voice thought to be bin Laden's talks about insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Well, since the tape is old, there is no mention of the capture of Saddam Hussein. And with Saddam in custody, the attention has swung back to bin Laden and his ability to evade American troops in that region.

And joining us from New York this morning to talk about the hunt for bin Laden is Mideast analyst Fawaz Gerges.

Thank you so much for being with us this morning.

FAWAZ GERGES, MIDDLE EAST ANALYST: My pleasure.

CALLAWAY: You know, this does bring up a lot of issues about the situation with bin Laden that have sort of been in the background while troops were looking for Saddam Hussein. But bring us up to date on where we are in the search for bin Laden and why it's been so difficult to find him.

GERGES: I think one point must be made very clear. We don't know for sure if bin Laden is alive or dead. But I think -- I mean, we think he is alive. But even if bin Laden is alive, I think dramatic differences exist between the situation and condition of Osama bin Laden and those of Saddam Hussein.

Firstly, it's believed that Osama bin Laden is hiding in the vast rugged mountains that separate Afghanistan from Pakistan. Very rough topography. And most...

CALLAWAY: Yes. The topography is very different from Iraq.

GERGES: Very, very difficult. I mean, Iraq, as you know, is an urban desert setting. And the difference, too, is that most -- I mean, the population, the tribal populations in Afghanistan and Pakistan tend to be largely supportive of Osama bin Laden, where most Iraqis did not support Saddam Hussein. This is point one.

Point two, let's remember that the United States is relying on the Pakistani security forces in the search for Osama bin Laden because it does not have -- its military does not have a free hand to pursue Osama bin Laden as it does in -- as it did or it does in Iraq itself.

CALLAWAY: Right.

GERGES: And thirdly, and this is a very important point, Osama bin Laden's Jihadi associates will not only protect Osama bin Laden, but will also die for him. In the case of Saddam Hussein and his two sons, let's remember, members of the extended tribes informed the Americans about their whereabouts.

CALLAWAY: Yes, but -- oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. Go ahead with your final point.

GERGES: No, not at all. I mean, this is a very important point. That is -- I mean, Jihadi associates of Osama bin Laden will die for him, will not inform on him.

And finally, I doubt it very much if Osama bin Laden could be captured. I think unlike Saddam Hussein, he would resist, he would go down fighting, he would even commit suicide. So -- I mean, let's remember there are dramatic conditions and differences between the situation of Osama bin Laden and that of Saddam Hussein. And this is why the United States is having a hard time capturing Osama bin Laden.

CALLAWAY: That was the point I was interrupting you with. I apologize for that. Was just that his supporters are willing to die for him. And wouldn't Osama bin Laden much prefer to die as a martyr, even committing suicide, as you mentioned, to be caught like -- especially after he saw what Saddam Hussein underwent?

GERGES: Absolutely. I mean, Osama bin Laden, by the way, is fighting to bring Allah's kingdom on Earth. It's a fight to the finish. Where Saddam Hussein, we know not only he did not resist, actually he surrendered. And his history tells us that he's really more interested in his personal survival than really going down fighting.

So I think it's not only -- I mean, there is a different mentality, a different mindset. And also, different strategic and technical situations. So the two men are different, substantively, and their conditions and their supporters look at them and walk around differently, of course, as we know now.

CALLAWAY: Fawaz Gerges, thank you so much for getting up early with us this morning and bringing us up to date on Osama bin Laden.

GERGES: It's my pleasure.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 21, 2003 - 07:12   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: According to a U.S. official, a supposed new Osama bin Laden tape is just a rerun. The audiotape was broadcast yesterday on the Arabic language network, Al Arabiya, but had originally been heard on Al Jazeera back in October. On the tape, the voice thought to be bin Laden's talks about insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Well, since the tape is old, there is no mention of the capture of Saddam Hussein. And with Saddam in custody, the attention has swung back to bin Laden and his ability to evade American troops in that region.

And joining us from New York this morning to talk about the hunt for bin Laden is Mideast analyst Fawaz Gerges.

Thank you so much for being with us this morning.

FAWAZ GERGES, MIDDLE EAST ANALYST: My pleasure.

CALLAWAY: You know, this does bring up a lot of issues about the situation with bin Laden that have sort of been in the background while troops were looking for Saddam Hussein. But bring us up to date on where we are in the search for bin Laden and why it's been so difficult to find him.

GERGES: I think one point must be made very clear. We don't know for sure if bin Laden is alive or dead. But I think -- I mean, we think he is alive. But even if bin Laden is alive, I think dramatic differences exist between the situation and condition of Osama bin Laden and those of Saddam Hussein.

Firstly, it's believed that Osama bin Laden is hiding in the vast rugged mountains that separate Afghanistan from Pakistan. Very rough topography. And most...

CALLAWAY: Yes. The topography is very different from Iraq.

GERGES: Very, very difficult. I mean, Iraq, as you know, is an urban desert setting. And the difference, too, is that most -- I mean, the population, the tribal populations in Afghanistan and Pakistan tend to be largely supportive of Osama bin Laden, where most Iraqis did not support Saddam Hussein. This is point one.

Point two, let's remember that the United States is relying on the Pakistani security forces in the search for Osama bin Laden because it does not have -- its military does not have a free hand to pursue Osama bin Laden as it does in -- as it did or it does in Iraq itself.

CALLAWAY: Right.

GERGES: And thirdly, and this is a very important point, Osama bin Laden's Jihadi associates will not only protect Osama bin Laden, but will also die for him. In the case of Saddam Hussein and his two sons, let's remember, members of the extended tribes informed the Americans about their whereabouts.

CALLAWAY: Yes, but -- oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. Go ahead with your final point.

GERGES: No, not at all. I mean, this is a very important point. That is -- I mean, Jihadi associates of Osama bin Laden will die for him, will not inform on him.

And finally, I doubt it very much if Osama bin Laden could be captured. I think unlike Saddam Hussein, he would resist, he would go down fighting, he would even commit suicide. So -- I mean, let's remember there are dramatic conditions and differences between the situation of Osama bin Laden and that of Saddam Hussein. And this is why the United States is having a hard time capturing Osama bin Laden.

CALLAWAY: That was the point I was interrupting you with. I apologize for that. Was just that his supporters are willing to die for him. And wouldn't Osama bin Laden much prefer to die as a martyr, even committing suicide, as you mentioned, to be caught like -- especially after he saw what Saddam Hussein underwent?

GERGES: Absolutely. I mean, Osama bin Laden, by the way, is fighting to bring Allah's kingdom on Earth. It's a fight to the finish. Where Saddam Hussein, we know not only he did not resist, actually he surrendered. And his history tells us that he's really more interested in his personal survival than really going down fighting.

So I think it's not only -- I mean, there is a different mentality, a different mindset. And also, different strategic and technical situations. So the two men are different, substantively, and their conditions and their supporters look at them and walk around differently, of course, as we know now.

CALLAWAY: Fawaz Gerges, thank you so much for getting up early with us this morning and bringing us up to date on Osama bin Laden.

GERGES: It's my pleasure.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com