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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview With Ian Vasquez, Steve Camarota

Aired January 11, 2004 - 09:44   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: The message from President Bush to millions of undocumented immigrants, be our guest. But many of them are cautious about the president's invitation to legally work in the U.S., and they have plenty of questions. Our Michael McManus reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL MCMANUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Not five minutes after President Bush's immigration reform speech, Manuel Ochoa's phone was ringing off the hook with illegal immigrants wanting to know more.

MANUEL OCHOA, IMMIGRATION PARALEGAL: Asking about the law and in what sense it's going to help them out.

MCMANUS: Ochoa prepares immigration papers for illegals like Karla Hernandez, who came here five years ago from El Salvador.

KARLA HERNANDEZ, IMMIGRANT: It's hard because we don't have transportation. They don't have access to driver's license. And to bank accounts.

MCMANUS: The president's proposal would grant an initial three- year work permit to illegal aliens with jobs, which the administration believes would eventually lead to better pay, treatment, and tracking of the nation's estimated 8 million workers in the country illegally. Still, some remain skeptical and question the president's motives.

FREDY GIRON, IMMIGRANT: It's only proposal so, you know, we'll see what happens. The election is coming, so I think it's something more like political.

MCMANUS: One group that opposes illegal immigration disagrees with any legislation which they believe would give lawbreakers a free pass.

DAN STEIN, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: Why do we want to reward people who are cheaters, who've broken the law, jumped in line, ripping off the taxpayers, taking advantage of schools, hospitals, patient health care?

MCMANUS: Some unemployed Americans believe the plan would make it harder for them to find jobs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's fine, but you've got to worry about home, first. MCMANUS: But President Bush says illegals fill the jobs Americans don't want.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think that's true, that just only illegal immigrants want these jobs. A lot of us are -- a lot of U.S. citizens are out of work.

MCMANUS: Hernandez hopes the proposal could open up new opportunity and one day even citizenship.

HERNANDEZ: It will help me to get -- to reach my goals like getting to a university and get my degree in this country.

MCMANUS (on camera): That is, if it even makes it through Congress. The plan hasn't even reached Capitol Hill yet, and lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are already calling for changes.

Michael McManus, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Let's talk more now about this plan to allow undocumented immigrants to obtain legal status as temporary workers in the U.S.

Joining the debate this morning are Ian Vasquez, director at the Cato Institute. Thanks so much for being with us, Mr. Vasquez. And Steve Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies. Mr. Camarota, we appreciate your time this morning. Both of you joining us from Washington today.

Let's get straight to the point. What is this all about? What are the biggest grievances, Mr. Vasquez, from the Hispanic community, about this proposal?

IAN VASQUEZ, DIRECTOR, CATO INSTITUTE: Well, I think that rather than concentrate on the grievances, we have to look at how positive this proposal is. I think that this is a tremendous proposal, both for the immigrants and for the United States, because it recognizes a reality. And that is that there are millions of immigrants from Mexico and elsewhere who come here to work. And there are millions of Americans who want them to work here. They're giving them jobs. Immigrants are part of the reason why the U.S. has been so prosperous. And this is a proposal that will make it so much easier, will facilitate the process by which those immigrants will continue to contribute to U.S. prosperity.

COLLINS: But, sir, are there not some very valid concerns for immigrants, particularly about having this temporary status, getting a green card and then possibly later being deported when that temporary status runs out?

VASQUEZ: Well, I think those are details that have to be figured out. Clearly this is a proposal in which all the details have not been worked out. They will be in legislation in the Congress, as this works through there. Those are legitimate concerns that will have to be dealt with.

COLLINS: And Mr. Camarota, let me ask you, some people are calling this amnesty. We've heard the word "blanket amnesty." These folks have broken the law. What is your thought on that?

STEVE CAMAROTA, DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: Well, it's clearly an amnesty. We're not trying to enforce the law and make them go home. We're not going to make them comply with the law. Rather, we're going to make the law comply with them. They get legal status; they get to stay three, six, nine years, whatever it is, and maybe the promise of a green card in the future. And the biggest problem with that is that it makes everyone who's played by the rules and waited their turn to come to this country, it makes them look like saps and suckers and dupes for playing by the rules. And that's not a message that we want to send. But that's exactly what we do when we give legal status to all these people who have jumped the cue and come here illegally.

COLLINS: But some people would say what sort of a crime is that, to go to another country, to try to get a job, to try to provide for your family?

CAMAROTA: Well, I think we could certainly have sympathy for the person who wants a better life, but the fact of the matter is that's only part of the picture. There's lots of other people who would like a better life and are going through the procedure. We're checking their backgrounds they're waiting their turn, and they're abiding by the rules. Why in heaven's name would we give this reward to the people who don't play by the rules and then say all those other people who are waiting their turn, sorry, pal, you've just got to wait. You're not -- who knows how long you have to wait. We're going to reward all the lawbreakers instead.

COLLINS: Mr. Vasquez, how is this going to boost the economy?

VASQUEZ: These are workers that are already here, and they're already working. It's going to create a legal channel for which future immigrants can apply. The reason, after all, that we have at least 8 million illegal immigrants in the United States is because there is a huge demand for those jobs and the supply in the United States is not there. And so the fact that so many people are violating, Americans and immigrants suggest that the current laws don't work, and they have to be fixed. Once those are fixed, it will facilitate the process of job creation and wealth creation.

COLLINS: And there's also another concern I'd like to get both your opinions on about the power of the employer. If this proposal goes through, the immigrants will be looking to their employers for sponsorship. What sort of concerns and possibly benefits are there, Mr. Camarota? Why don't I begin with you?

CAMAROTA: Right. It's kind of like an indentured servant we had hundreds of years ago. That's why the employers like it. The person is typically tied to the employer, as a guest worker he's dependent on the employer to fill out the application, petition the government in many cases. That's how other guest-worker programs have often worked. And so that's why employers love it.

But once you leave the offices of the chamber of commerce, political support for this kind of proposal is very small. Both on the left and the right. And that's why this proposal's probably dead in the water, because there's no way that the Congress is going to pass anything like some new indentured servitude program.

COLLINS: But you say indentured servitude. Aren't there some benefits? I'm talking about pension plans and good things that can come of this, even though they do need to sort of sponsorship. Mr. Vasquez, if you'll respond to that?

VASQUEZ: Well, of course, that would come with that. But one of the beauties of the Bush proposal is it's very different than previous guest-worker programs in the sense that, in fact, workers are not tied to their employers as in the past. Workers have the ability to choose between jobs. In previous guest-worker programs, they had to stay and work with the original employer. The central part of this proposal is mobility. Workers can choose wherever they can get jobs in the U.S. economy. And this increases their bargaining power, their wages, and their position.

COLLINS: Ian Vasquez, director at the Cato Institute, thanks so much for your time. And also, Steve Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies. Thanks guys, we appreciate your insight on this.

CAMAROTA: Thank you.

VASQUEZ: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired January 11, 2004 - 09:44   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: The message from President Bush to millions of undocumented immigrants, be our guest. But many of them are cautious about the president's invitation to legally work in the U.S., and they have plenty of questions. Our Michael McManus reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL MCMANUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Not five minutes after President Bush's immigration reform speech, Manuel Ochoa's phone was ringing off the hook with illegal immigrants wanting to know more.

MANUEL OCHOA, IMMIGRATION PARALEGAL: Asking about the law and in what sense it's going to help them out.

MCMANUS: Ochoa prepares immigration papers for illegals like Karla Hernandez, who came here five years ago from El Salvador.

KARLA HERNANDEZ, IMMIGRANT: It's hard because we don't have transportation. They don't have access to driver's license. And to bank accounts.

MCMANUS: The president's proposal would grant an initial three- year work permit to illegal aliens with jobs, which the administration believes would eventually lead to better pay, treatment, and tracking of the nation's estimated 8 million workers in the country illegally. Still, some remain skeptical and question the president's motives.

FREDY GIRON, IMMIGRANT: It's only proposal so, you know, we'll see what happens. The election is coming, so I think it's something more like political.

MCMANUS: One group that opposes illegal immigration disagrees with any legislation which they believe would give lawbreakers a free pass.

DAN STEIN, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: Why do we want to reward people who are cheaters, who've broken the law, jumped in line, ripping off the taxpayers, taking advantage of schools, hospitals, patient health care?

MCMANUS: Some unemployed Americans believe the plan would make it harder for them to find jobs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's fine, but you've got to worry about home, first. MCMANUS: But President Bush says illegals fill the jobs Americans don't want.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think that's true, that just only illegal immigrants want these jobs. A lot of us are -- a lot of U.S. citizens are out of work.

MCMANUS: Hernandez hopes the proposal could open up new opportunity and one day even citizenship.

HERNANDEZ: It will help me to get -- to reach my goals like getting to a university and get my degree in this country.

MCMANUS (on camera): That is, if it even makes it through Congress. The plan hasn't even reached Capitol Hill yet, and lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are already calling for changes.

Michael McManus, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Let's talk more now about this plan to allow undocumented immigrants to obtain legal status as temporary workers in the U.S.

Joining the debate this morning are Ian Vasquez, director at the Cato Institute. Thanks so much for being with us, Mr. Vasquez. And Steve Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies. Mr. Camarota, we appreciate your time this morning. Both of you joining us from Washington today.

Let's get straight to the point. What is this all about? What are the biggest grievances, Mr. Vasquez, from the Hispanic community, about this proposal?

IAN VASQUEZ, DIRECTOR, CATO INSTITUTE: Well, I think that rather than concentrate on the grievances, we have to look at how positive this proposal is. I think that this is a tremendous proposal, both for the immigrants and for the United States, because it recognizes a reality. And that is that there are millions of immigrants from Mexico and elsewhere who come here to work. And there are millions of Americans who want them to work here. They're giving them jobs. Immigrants are part of the reason why the U.S. has been so prosperous. And this is a proposal that will make it so much easier, will facilitate the process by which those immigrants will continue to contribute to U.S. prosperity.

COLLINS: But, sir, are there not some very valid concerns for immigrants, particularly about having this temporary status, getting a green card and then possibly later being deported when that temporary status runs out?

VASQUEZ: Well, I think those are details that have to be figured out. Clearly this is a proposal in which all the details have not been worked out. They will be in legislation in the Congress, as this works through there. Those are legitimate concerns that will have to be dealt with.

COLLINS: And Mr. Camarota, let me ask you, some people are calling this amnesty. We've heard the word "blanket amnesty." These folks have broken the law. What is your thought on that?

STEVE CAMAROTA, DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: Well, it's clearly an amnesty. We're not trying to enforce the law and make them go home. We're not going to make them comply with the law. Rather, we're going to make the law comply with them. They get legal status; they get to stay three, six, nine years, whatever it is, and maybe the promise of a green card in the future. And the biggest problem with that is that it makes everyone who's played by the rules and waited their turn to come to this country, it makes them look like saps and suckers and dupes for playing by the rules. And that's not a message that we want to send. But that's exactly what we do when we give legal status to all these people who have jumped the cue and come here illegally.

COLLINS: But some people would say what sort of a crime is that, to go to another country, to try to get a job, to try to provide for your family?

CAMAROTA: Well, I think we could certainly have sympathy for the person who wants a better life, but the fact of the matter is that's only part of the picture. There's lots of other people who would like a better life and are going through the procedure. We're checking their backgrounds they're waiting their turn, and they're abiding by the rules. Why in heaven's name would we give this reward to the people who don't play by the rules and then say all those other people who are waiting their turn, sorry, pal, you've just got to wait. You're not -- who knows how long you have to wait. We're going to reward all the lawbreakers instead.

COLLINS: Mr. Vasquez, how is this going to boost the economy?

VASQUEZ: These are workers that are already here, and they're already working. It's going to create a legal channel for which future immigrants can apply. The reason, after all, that we have at least 8 million illegal immigrants in the United States is because there is a huge demand for those jobs and the supply in the United States is not there. And so the fact that so many people are violating, Americans and immigrants suggest that the current laws don't work, and they have to be fixed. Once those are fixed, it will facilitate the process of job creation and wealth creation.

COLLINS: And there's also another concern I'd like to get both your opinions on about the power of the employer. If this proposal goes through, the immigrants will be looking to their employers for sponsorship. What sort of concerns and possibly benefits are there, Mr. Camarota? Why don't I begin with you?

CAMAROTA: Right. It's kind of like an indentured servant we had hundreds of years ago. That's why the employers like it. The person is typically tied to the employer, as a guest worker he's dependent on the employer to fill out the application, petition the government in many cases. That's how other guest-worker programs have often worked. And so that's why employers love it.

But once you leave the offices of the chamber of commerce, political support for this kind of proposal is very small. Both on the left and the right. And that's why this proposal's probably dead in the water, because there's no way that the Congress is going to pass anything like some new indentured servitude program.

COLLINS: But you say indentured servitude. Aren't there some benefits? I'm talking about pension plans and good things that can come of this, even though they do need to sort of sponsorship. Mr. Vasquez, if you'll respond to that?

VASQUEZ: Well, of course, that would come with that. But one of the beauties of the Bush proposal is it's very different than previous guest-worker programs in the sense that, in fact, workers are not tied to their employers as in the past. Workers have the ability to choose between jobs. In previous guest-worker programs, they had to stay and work with the original employer. The central part of this proposal is mobility. Workers can choose wherever they can get jobs in the U.S. economy. And this increases their bargaining power, their wages, and their position.

COLLINS: Ian Vasquez, director at the Cato Institute, thanks so much for your time. And also, Steve Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies. Thanks guys, we appreciate your insight on this.

CAMAROTA: Thank you.

VASQUEZ: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com