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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview With Michael Cohen, Monty Neill

Aired February 15, 2004 - 07:15   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: There was a time when earning a high school diploma was a key step to being successful in the work force. Now some say that's changing. The American Diploma Project has released a study that finds schools across the country are graduating many students who are not prepared for the work force or college.
Two guests are joining us this morning to talk about. In Washington, Michael Cohen. He is the president of Achieve, which is one of the organizations that makes up the Diploma Project.

Michael, good morning to you. Thanks for being here.

MICHAEL COHEN, PRESIDENT, ACHIEVE: Thank you, Heidi. Good morning.

COLLINS: And in Boston, Monty Neill, the executive director of the National Center for Fair and Open testing. Monty, thank you -- also to you for being here today.

I want to begin, if I could, with you, Michael. The results of this test, first of all, put it in perspective for us. Is everyone going to be looking at this? I mean, what sort of impact will this have?

COHEN: Oh, I think it's going to have tremendous impact because it raises a very important issue, are we preparing young people for the future that they will be facing? And what we found is that the knowledge and skills, particularly in mathematics and English that young people need, even to succeed in college or in a good job, are much more rigorous and challenging than what we currently expect young people to do in order to earn a high school diploma.

COLLINS: Monty, what's the problem with a test like this?

MONTY NEILL, NATIONAL CENTER FOR FAIR AND OPEN TESTING: The problem with the approach they're taking is they're right that there are many children graduating from school inadequately prepared. The major problem is in this country, we simply don't fund schooling well enough to insure that many children or all children are able to succeed. And also, the approach taken by these groups will reduce education to test preparation.

We see that in state after state. And unfortunately, that approach actually will fail to prepare our children for good employment or for success in college.

COLLINS: So it sounds like you're saying that groups like these are hurting the process?

NEILL: It's fine to define a high quality academic education. Groups should contribute to that process. What we find with the groups that are doing this is they have a very narrow definition of what academic success is. And they tend to ignore all the other factors that are critical to schooling that parents and communities want for their children.

COLLINS: Michael, is it possible that an exit test is something that is too standardized? I mean, is there a way that you could test the students differently and find out if they are ready for the work force or for college, for that matter?

COHEN: Certainly. And if you read our report carefully, you'll see that that's what we're in favor of. We do believe that young people ought to pass an exam at some point in their high school career, at least demonstrating that they've got a floor of skills that are necessary to succeed.

But one of the expectations that we found, both post secondary institutions and employers want is for young people to be able to carry out a research project, to define a problem, to gather data that addresses it, to analyze the data, and to write it up and communicate it in some way. You can't measure that on a 90 minute standardized test at the end of the year, but that doesn't mean you can't assess whether young people can do that.

They could be required to do significant research projects at some point in their high school career and demonstrate that they can pull that off.

COLLINS: So Monty, is it possible then that this idea of combination possibly between an exit test and some sort of more subjective, maybe oral exam or research project like Michael was talking about, would help understand where the children are at?

NEILL: Well, they're taking steps in the right direction. The best schools working with both low income and higher income kids allow students and expect students to demonstrate their knowledge in a whole array of ways, not just a standardized test and a research project, or a standardized test and a paper, or an essay. You've got to use a whole array of classroom based work to understand whether kids are doing well.

And more importantly, you need high quality classroom assessment, so the teachers can give good feedback to the students, so the students can progress well. You also have to allow that to insure flexibility.

We have -- children learn in different ways. They show their knowledge in different ways. They have a lot of human variety. That's good. We ought to honor that. And we ought to build on that fact, instead of trying for a one size fits all model. That's our fear with their approach.

COLLINS: Isn't that quite costly, though, in order to do that? To make something different for maybe each school or state or something like that? Much more expensive?

NEILL: It would be somewhat more expensive, but the core of the matter simply is that we have high -- if we have high quality teachers assessing the children, and a little bit of supplemental measures to make sure that what the teachers are saying about the children is reasonably accurate, then it's financially very doable, as well as financially very flexible. They're doing this in some states. There is -- Nebraska is headed in this direction. Unfortunately, most states have a kind of standardized one size fits all model. And the so-called No Child Left Behind Act is going to leave all the children behind by turning them into test prep drones, focusing just on standardized tests.

COLLINS: Michael, let me let you have the last word here, quickly, before we let you guys go. Tell us what it is that the kids should be tested for. I mean, should they be -- have a couple of math tests or reading tests? What is it that we want to see before they graduate from high school?

COHEN: When a young person graduates from high school, they ought to know the math that's typically contained in Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, and Probability and Statistics. So there are lots of courses that can prepare you for that, but that math ought to be common to every high school graduate.

In English, they ought to be able to read complex text and understand and interpret them. They ought to be able to write well. They ought to be able to communicate in a variety of ways. And they need a set of problem solving and reasoning skills that will carry them into life. That's what's important to aim for.

COLLINS: All right, clearly a work in progress. To the both of you, thank you so much for being with us this morning. I'm sure we'll hear a lot more on it.

COHEN: Thank you.

NEILL: Thank you.

COLLINS: Michael Cohen and Monty Neill. Thanks again, gentlemen.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired February 15, 2004 - 07:15   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: There was a time when earning a high school diploma was a key step to being successful in the work force. Now some say that's changing. The American Diploma Project has released a study that finds schools across the country are graduating many students who are not prepared for the work force or college.
Two guests are joining us this morning to talk about. In Washington, Michael Cohen. He is the president of Achieve, which is one of the organizations that makes up the Diploma Project.

Michael, good morning to you. Thanks for being here.

MICHAEL COHEN, PRESIDENT, ACHIEVE: Thank you, Heidi. Good morning.

COLLINS: And in Boston, Monty Neill, the executive director of the National Center for Fair and Open testing. Monty, thank you -- also to you for being here today.

I want to begin, if I could, with you, Michael. The results of this test, first of all, put it in perspective for us. Is everyone going to be looking at this? I mean, what sort of impact will this have?

COHEN: Oh, I think it's going to have tremendous impact because it raises a very important issue, are we preparing young people for the future that they will be facing? And what we found is that the knowledge and skills, particularly in mathematics and English that young people need, even to succeed in college or in a good job, are much more rigorous and challenging than what we currently expect young people to do in order to earn a high school diploma.

COLLINS: Monty, what's the problem with a test like this?

MONTY NEILL, NATIONAL CENTER FOR FAIR AND OPEN TESTING: The problem with the approach they're taking is they're right that there are many children graduating from school inadequately prepared. The major problem is in this country, we simply don't fund schooling well enough to insure that many children or all children are able to succeed. And also, the approach taken by these groups will reduce education to test preparation.

We see that in state after state. And unfortunately, that approach actually will fail to prepare our children for good employment or for success in college.

COLLINS: So it sounds like you're saying that groups like these are hurting the process?

NEILL: It's fine to define a high quality academic education. Groups should contribute to that process. What we find with the groups that are doing this is they have a very narrow definition of what academic success is. And they tend to ignore all the other factors that are critical to schooling that parents and communities want for their children.

COLLINS: Michael, is it possible that an exit test is something that is too standardized? I mean, is there a way that you could test the students differently and find out if they are ready for the work force or for college, for that matter?

COHEN: Certainly. And if you read our report carefully, you'll see that that's what we're in favor of. We do believe that young people ought to pass an exam at some point in their high school career, at least demonstrating that they've got a floor of skills that are necessary to succeed.

But one of the expectations that we found, both post secondary institutions and employers want is for young people to be able to carry out a research project, to define a problem, to gather data that addresses it, to analyze the data, and to write it up and communicate it in some way. You can't measure that on a 90 minute standardized test at the end of the year, but that doesn't mean you can't assess whether young people can do that.

They could be required to do significant research projects at some point in their high school career and demonstrate that they can pull that off.

COLLINS: So Monty, is it possible then that this idea of combination possibly between an exit test and some sort of more subjective, maybe oral exam or research project like Michael was talking about, would help understand where the children are at?

NEILL: Well, they're taking steps in the right direction. The best schools working with both low income and higher income kids allow students and expect students to demonstrate their knowledge in a whole array of ways, not just a standardized test and a research project, or a standardized test and a paper, or an essay. You've got to use a whole array of classroom based work to understand whether kids are doing well.

And more importantly, you need high quality classroom assessment, so the teachers can give good feedback to the students, so the students can progress well. You also have to allow that to insure flexibility.

We have -- children learn in different ways. They show their knowledge in different ways. They have a lot of human variety. That's good. We ought to honor that. And we ought to build on that fact, instead of trying for a one size fits all model. That's our fear with their approach.

COLLINS: Isn't that quite costly, though, in order to do that? To make something different for maybe each school or state or something like that? Much more expensive?

NEILL: It would be somewhat more expensive, but the core of the matter simply is that we have high -- if we have high quality teachers assessing the children, and a little bit of supplemental measures to make sure that what the teachers are saying about the children is reasonably accurate, then it's financially very doable, as well as financially very flexible. They're doing this in some states. There is -- Nebraska is headed in this direction. Unfortunately, most states have a kind of standardized one size fits all model. And the so-called No Child Left Behind Act is going to leave all the children behind by turning them into test prep drones, focusing just on standardized tests.

COLLINS: Michael, let me let you have the last word here, quickly, before we let you guys go. Tell us what it is that the kids should be tested for. I mean, should they be -- have a couple of math tests or reading tests? What is it that we want to see before they graduate from high school?

COHEN: When a young person graduates from high school, they ought to know the math that's typically contained in Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, and Probability and Statistics. So there are lots of courses that can prepare you for that, but that math ought to be common to every high school graduate.

In English, they ought to be able to read complex text and understand and interpret them. They ought to be able to write well. They ought to be able to communicate in a variety of ways. And they need a set of problem solving and reasoning skills that will carry them into life. That's what's important to aim for.

COLLINS: All right, clearly a work in progress. To the both of you, thank you so much for being with us this morning. I'm sure we'll hear a lot more on it.

COHEN: Thank you.

NEILL: Thank you.

COLLINS: Michael Cohen and Monty Neill. Thanks again, gentlemen.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com