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CNN Sunday Morning
Explosion Rocks Oil Terminal Outside of London; Iraq War Policy Examined; Richard Pryor Dies
Aired December 11, 2005 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: Wow, just listen to that. Six hours ago, fireballs burst into the sky as explosions rock a large oil terminal outside of London. The fire is under control but will burn for days. Although terrorist groups have threatened to target fuel depots, police say there is no indication the blasts are anything but an accident.
We're going to have a live report in just a few minutes.
And in a surprise announcement, Iran is offering the U.S. a share in building a new nuclear power plant. It is a bid to head off White House opposition to its atomic program. Tehran also wants to build other nuclear power plants in southern Iran with foreign help.
And now an update on the breaking news we brought you yesterday morning. Just seven people survived a Nigerian plane crash, 103 people are dead, including one American, says the U.S. embassy. That plane was carrying a large group of schoolchildren returning home for the holidays when it crash-landed during a storm.
Well, good morning. From the CNN Center in Atlanta, this is CNN SUNDAY MORNING, December 11. Almost halfway through this month. Boy, it goes by fast.
I'm Betty Nguyen.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Fast. Not fast enough.
NGUYEN: You're ready for it to be done with. Get the holidays over.
HARRIS: All the chaos around the holidays.
NGUYEN: I know.
HARRIS: Good morning, Betty. Good to see you.
NGUYEN: Good morning. How you doing?
HARRIS: Outstanding. Outstanding.
7:00 a.m. here in Atlanta, noon in London, where we start this morning.
A horrible wakeup call for thousands of people just north of London this morning. They're breathing in what could be toxic smoke after about 20 petroleum tanks blew up at an oil depot. Dozens of people are injured.
CNN's Paula Newton joins us from the scene with the latest developments in this story.
Paula, good morning. What can you tell us?
PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, like you said, this was a huge explosion. It literally rocked people out of their beds.
We've had windows broken, roofs caved in, and of course, top of mind was terrorism. We had a lot of people calling in to say that they might have seen a plane going in there. That's being ruled out now. They're saying this was accidental.
We have about 36 injuries, four of them serious. But most of the authorities say they really got off lucky with that this one.
What's going on now is they have to starve that fire behind me. And as people will remember with the Gulf war, that can take a very long time. They have fire crews from all over trying to attack this thing from the outside in.
In the meantime, though, that means people in these neighborhoods will have this huge, dark smoke hanging over them. They have had some evacuations.
I have to say, we were out in the neighborhoods, it was pretty leisurely. What you're -- what you're smelling is the smell of burning oil, not really many injuries in the larger population.
HARRIS: So Paula, I guess that is part of the real concern right now, is just what is in that smoke, the chemicals in that smoke. And it's going up in the air now, but at some point it does have to settle again, doesn't it?
NEWTON: There doesn't seem to be a strong wind right now. It's going east. Their concern is for the people in the immediate community.
They are saying that people's eyes will be irritated, they will cough, they will have some respiratory problems, may feel nauseous. Obviously their concern is for young children, elderly people.
They've told them to get to an evacuation center when they feel that they can. But as I said, Tony, this is going to go on for hours, maybe even days -- Tony.
HARRIS: OK. Paula Newton for us on the scene of that blast in London at that petroleum plant.
Paula, thank you.
NGUYEN: Well, there is a new development in the search for what caused a Southwest plane to smash into a car, killing 6-year-old Joshua Woods. Investigators are now focusing on the jet's brakes.
Reporter Ceci Rodgers updates us now from Chicago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CECI RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The National Transportation Safety Board gave the first real snapshot of what happened in the cockpit of Southwest Airlines Flight 1248 Thursday night. The plane skidded off the end of the runway and into a busy intersection at Chicago's Midway Airport, crushing two cars and killing a 6-year-old boy. The pilot apparently had trouble engaging the thrust reversers used to help slow the airplane after touchdown.
ROBERT BENZON, NTSB INVESTIGATOR: For some reason that we haven't quite pinned down yet, and we will, he couldn't get them to come up so he could push them forward. So -- and that caused seconds of delay. We haven't quite figured out how many seconds, but there was delay involved there.
RODGERS: With just 32 seconds between the time the plane touched down and when it barreled through a wall at the end of the runway, every second was crucial. The flight crew told investigators when they realized the plane wasn't slowing down quickly enough, they began to press on the brakes manually, as hard as they could.
The NTSB said weather is also a continuing focus of the investigation.
BENZON: There was an enhanced snow band coming into the area at the time of the accident, localized heavy snow was occurring at times, and our guys were calling it a unique weather phenomenon.
RODGERS: Engineers worked for five hours Saturday, dislodging the injured Southwest Airlines jet from a fire hydrant, as it turns out, then moving it with tow trucks, a crane and a sling for the aircraft's nose, out of the street and into a hangar at Midway Airport.
(on camera): Investigators will be in Chicago for several more days. It could be up to a year before they're able to pinpoint the exact cause of the accident.
Ceci Rodgers for CNN, Chicago.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS: Richard Pryor was truly an icon. He broke the rules and stretched comedy to its borders, encouraging his successors to do the same thing.
Pryor battled multiple sclerosis for nearly a decade. He died yesterday after suffering a heart attack at his California home.
As CNN's Sibila Vargas reports, Richard Pryor set the stage for many and will be sorely missed.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SIBILA VARGAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice over): From actor...
JAMIE FOXX, ACTOR: Everybody here knows that that's a huge loss. But at the same time, he inspired all of us.
VARGAS: ... to director...
ROB REINER, DIRECTOR: Richard Pryor was, bar none, one of the great comedians of all time.
VARGAS: ...to friend...
PAUL MOONEY, COMEDIAN: He was really one of the only comics who I knew who would take his personal life to the stage.
VARGAS: ... all of Hollywood is remembering comedian Richard Pryor.
RANDY JACKSON, PRODUCER: Talk about something edgy, talk about somebody pushing the right to free speech on stage and saying, yo, I'm going to do it the way I need to do it.
VARGAS: Even this weekend "Saturday Night Live" remembered Pryor with a clip that showcased his edgy, controversial style.
TINA FEY, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE": Almost 30 years ago to the day he came to this studio and changed our show forever. Here's a clip where he and Chevy played some word association.
CHEVY CHASE, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE": Spear chucker.
RICHARD PRYOR, COMEDIAN, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE": White trash!
CHASE: Jungle bunny!
PRYOR: Honky!
CHASE: Spade!
PRYOR: Honky! Honky!
CHASE: Nigger.
PRYOR: Dead honky.
VARGAS: At West Hollywood's famous Comedy Store Pryor was lauded as a maverick.
ARON KADER, COMEDY STORE: He was the first black comedian that really crossed over, I guess you could say, and broke that wall down for every other group to kind of follow.
VARGAS: Fans outside his star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame echoed that sentiment. JAY TURNER, FAN: There will never ever be another Richard Pryor. It doesn't matter how many comedians they have out today, tomorrow. There will never be another Richard Pryor.
VARGAS: His wife, Jennifer Lee Pryor, who was with the comedian when he passed away, told CNN he was extraordinary.
He enjoyed life right up until the end. He did not suffer. He went quickly. And at the end there was a smile on his face.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS: Richard Pryor, live on the Sunset Strip -- Betty.
Funniest thing I've ever seen.
NGUYEN: He was truly just a legend.
HARRIS: Get that. If you haven't seen it, get it, watch it.
NGUYEN: There are so many, too. He -- some 40 films he did.
HARRIS: Yes. The single funniest thing...
NGUYEN: That right there.
HARRIS: That's it.
NGUYEN: Hands down, bar none.
HARRIS: Yes, that's it.
From the comedy stage now to the political arena. And we're mourning another American icon.
Former Minnesota senator and Democratic presidential contender Eugene McCarthy died yesterday. McCarthy ran for president five times.
A harsh critic of the Vietnam War, McCarthy took on President Lyndon Johnson for the 1968 Democratic nomination. His tough challenge was widely seen as leading to Johnson's eventual resignation.
Eugene McCarthy was 89.
NGUYEN: Well, we all know part of the American dream is owning your own home. But, in the midst of Hurricane Katrina and the nightmare that was caused by that, homeowners must now pay for houses that they can't live in.
Is help on the way? Well, that story next on CNN SUNDAY MORNING.
HARRIS: And hundreds of little twinkle toes enter this school and come out superstars. We'll tell you how one man's vision for the arts has turned into a $54 million project. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, it's a case of damned if they do and damned if they don't. Thousands of homes and business owners still have to make monthly mortgage payments on their ruined properties.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Leona Grandison walks into the home she bought four years ago in a neighborhood devastated by flooding. Now mold is everywhere.
(on camera) Can you get this stuff off? Can you get rid of it?
LEONA GRANDISON, NEW ORLEANS HOMEOWNER: No. You have to take that whole wall out here, up to about at least here.
OPPENHEIM (voice-over): The cost of fixing the damage, she estimates would be at least $20,000. Leona's mortgage lender gave her a break on payments for a couple of months. But any time now, she says, she may have to resume making payments on a home she can't live in yet.
GRANDISON: You have to pay the mortgage payments whether you're living in it or not.
OPPENHEIM: In a different New Orleans neighborhood, wealthier, but just as devastated, City Councilman Jay Batt is facing a similar problem.
(on camera): Is this the way in, Jay?
JAY BATT, NEW ORLEANS CITY COUNCILMAN: This is the way in. This is my door.
OPPENHEIM: This is your door.
BATT: Come on in.
OPPENHEIM (voice-over): His home is also in the process of being gutted. And like Leona, he's got financial pressures. Jay resumed making monthly house payments.
(on camera): Is it fair to say that over the next year you would spend somewhere between say $20,000 to $30,000 in mortgage payments for a home you can't live in?
BATT: That's correct. That's correct. And that's difficult and while paying for an apartment.
OPPENHEIM (voice-over): Moments after that interview, we went upstairs. BATT: Kids' playroom. Oh good. I've been looted.
OPPENHEIM (on camera): You just, sir, are realizing that the TV is gone?
BATT: Yes. I've been looted. The TV is gone.
OPPENHEIM (voice-over): Jay Batt knows he is in better shape than folks like Leona Grandison. He has income from a franchise of clothing stores.
GRANDISON: Basically, this is everything I had.
OPPENHEIM: She has really lost everything. Her business, the Candlelight Lounge in the city's historic Treme neighborhood has been looted by thieves and ravaged by floodwater. Leona has mortgage payments coming due here as well. By the end of the month she may have to pay a hefty sum between her two properties.
GRANDISON: Almost $2,000...
OPPENHEIM (on camera): $2,000 a month, basically.
GRANDISON: Right.
OPPENHEIM: And you don't have income?
GRANDISON: No income.
OPPENHEIM (voice-over): It is hard to pinpoint an exact figure for how many people are in the kind of financial fix Leona is in. One estimate from Louisiana State University says there are about 60,000 homeowners in the New Orleans area alone whose mortgage payments were deferred. And that doesn't count thousands of others along the Gulf Coast.
(on camera): The Federal Housing Administration is offering assistance to as many as 20,000 homeowners from Florida to Texas. Mostly first-time homebuyers whose mortgages were already insured by the FHA. Experts here say that will make a difference, but that there are tens of thousands of homeowners who don't qualify and won't get that kind of help to make their mortgage payments.
(voice-over): As a city councilman, Jay Batt is calling on the government to extend bridge loans so that small business owners can rebuild.
BATT: You know, we're not looking for ridiculous handouts or anything, but just an opportunity to put our lives back together.
OPPENHEIM: Leona Grandison, now staying at the home of a friend, simply doesn't know how she'll put her life back together.
GRANDISON: But you got to keep the faith and be strong, or else you won't survive.
OPPENHEIM: And she is optimistic, even as she faces big bills and has no way to pay them.
Keith Oppenheim, CNN, New Orleans. (END VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS: So what will the government do for hurricane victims? Several of them testified on Capitol Hill last week. We will hear one woman's personal account this morning, coming up on CNN SUNDAY MORNING, 9:00 a.m. Eastern.
NGUYEN: And if you're just tuning in, here are our top stories today.
A series of explosions rock the earth outside London. The blast and fireballs billowing skyward above one of Britain's largest oil terminals. Authorities say there is no indication it's anything other than an accident.
Iraq imposes strict security precautions for Thursday's parliamentary elections. Measures include closing all borders and airports and extending curfew hours. The restrictions are in place from Tuesday to early Saturday.
There's no word yet on clemency for Stanley "Tookie" Williams. California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has made no announcement one way or the other. Execution for the condemned street gang founder is scheduled for Tuesday, less than 48 hours from now.
(MUSIC)
And you're listening to the new ambassador of conscience? Yes, that's right. Are you a little confused? Well, we'll try to explain all of this next.
HARRIS: And all morning here on CNN SUNDAY Iraqi students tell us what they think about the American presence in their country. Some of them sending a message to President George Bush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMJED ABRAHEEM, 22-YEAR-OLD STUDENT (through translator): George Bush entered Iraq because he has interest in this country. So the victory that he achieved is not for Iraqis' sake, but for his interest and his people. But for us, as Iraqis, since American troops entered our country, we live a tragedy that all people are suffering from.
The victory for all Iraqis is achieved when occupation forces withdraw from Iraq. That is our real victory. We pray to god for this day, when we see occupation forces leave Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Well, that brings us to this morning's e-mail question. How do you define victory in Iraq? Send us your thoughts at weekends@cnn.com.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: Time now to check the stories making news around the world today.
HARRIS: Worry and hope for the families of some Western hostages in Iraq.
For more on that, we turn to Shannon Cook at our international desk.
Shanon, good morning.
SHANON COOK, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Good morning, Tony. Thank you.
A very tense situation given that the deadline the captors have set out has passed and there's still no word on them form the fate of these -- these hostages. Relatives and friends of the four hostages are doing all they really can in this situation, which is holding vigils as appeals for the hostages' release.
In Toronto, some gathered in a show of support for the Canadian hostage, James Loney. He's one of four kidnapped members of the Christian Peacemakers who have been in Iraq since October 2002, investigations allegations of abuse against Iraqi detainees.
In the U.K., a Baptist church is holding a vigil all weekend for British hostage Norman Kember.
To Hong Kong now, where demonstrators have gathered to protest the upcoming world trade talks there. These talks are scheduled for Tuesday. The protesters oppose globalization, and this is the first of three major marches they've planned. The territory is mounting what's being called its biggest security operation ever.
And in Chile, voters head to the polls today to choose the country's next president. The front-runner is a socialist candidate named Michelle Bachelet. If she wins she'll be Chile's first female president.
It's never too early for U2, wouldn't you say? And the band has been honored for two decades of commitment to human rights.
Amnesty International awarded the Irish rock band its highest human rights accolade. That's the 2005 Ambassador of Conscience Award. The award cited U2's participation in Live Aid in 1985 and then the follow-up to that Live Aid, which was held earlier this year, among other things.
Bono, of course, a campaigner of human rights and global debt issues.
HARRIS: Yes, we like that band, don't we?
NGUYEN: Oh, boy.
COOK: We like them a lot.
NGUYEN: They -- they have been loved for years, decades. HARRIS: We missed the show here. We missed the show here in Atlanta.
NGUYEN: I had to work.
COOK: I saw it.
HARRIS: You saw the show?
NGUYEN: You lucky woman, you.
HARRIS: If you saw it, let me ask you a question then.
COOK: Shoot.
HARRIS: We know that they've done all this work for wonderful causes through the years. Is there any sort of -- when you go to the concert, do you see any evidence of their humanitarian work as part of the show?
COOK: Definitely. In fact, there's a sequence where they have this giant video screen with a woman appearing on the screen, and she recites some of the articles from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
NGUYEN: Really?
COOK: It's a really nice moment, actually. The crowd responds well. But then again, if Bono laid down on the stage and took a nap, the audience would still, you know, respond well.
HARRIS: Oh boy.
NGUYEN: They would still come in droves to see that. Ambassador of conscience.
HARRIS: (INAUDIBLE). OK, Shanon. Thank you.
COOK: Thanks, guys.
NGUYEN: Well, time now to talk to the ambassador of weather this morning here at CNN.
(WEATHER REPORT)
NGUYEN: They're known taking their tour all over the world. Take a look.
Now Alvin Ailey dancers have a place to rest their weary feet. And there's no place like home. We're going to take you there, to that new home, live, coming up.
HARRIS: A good debate for you coming up. After nearly 1,000 days in Iraq, how do you define victory there? Is it near or far? A really good debate, right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Now in the news, flames and toxic smoke, a story developing all morning north of London. Look at the video. Man, multiple explosions woke sleeping Brits and what authorities are calling an industrial accident at one of Britain's largest fuel depots. The explosions began over seven hours around 6:00 in Britain. Most people were asleep when the blast shattered windows and sent multiple fire balls and towers of smoke into the air, at least 36 injuries to report.
We're keeping a close eye on California this morning where convicted killer and former gang leader Stanley "Tookie" Williams has fewer than 48 hours to live. No word yet from Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger who has until late tomorrow night to decide whether to grant Williams clemency. Williams supporters cite his anti-gang efforts in prison. He's scheduled to die by injection early Tuesday.
Let's take a look at the most popular stories right now on cnn.com. After the London blast, it's the arrest of a "Sopranos" actor in a New York. Lillo Brancato was arrested with another man in connection with the shooting death of an off-duty cop. All three were wounded in a gunfight -- there we go, that's the right page -- in a gunfight outside the officer's Bronx home. The officer later died.
NGUYEN: The families of four western hostages in Iraq are still holding out hope now that a second deadline for their threatened execution has passed. The hostage takers threatened to kill the Christian peace activists by yesterday, if all Iraqi prisoners were not released. Now they had extended their original Thursday deadline. Neither the U.S. nor Iraqi officials have heard from the kidnappers but the daughter of one hostage, American Tom Fox, hopes the kidnapers will hear her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATHERINE FOX, DAUGHTER OF HOSTAGE: Our entire family is making a personal appeal to those who have taken him. Your recent extension of the time line verifies my father's belief that the Iraqi people are honorable and just.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NGUYEN: There's no sign that emissaries sent from Canada and Britain have made contact with the kidnappers. The hostages were taken about two weeks ago.
Tonight 8:00 Eastern, "CNN PRESENTS: 1,000 Days in Iraq." The program kicks off a week of special coverage as the Iraqi people get ready to elect a permanent government. That takes place on Thursday.
HARRIS: Well, Betty, let's talk more about this milestone vote. Will the election bring a sense of victory for the U.S.? Some say yes, others say no. What exactly is victory? The dictionary says victory is the overcoming of an enemy or antagonist, achievement of mastery or success in a struggle or endeavor against odds or difficulties. Over the last two weeks, President Bush has outlined what he calls his victory plan. Let's hear how he defines the word.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our goal is victory and victory will be achieved when the terrorists and Saddamists can no longer threaten Iraq's democracy, when the Iraqi security forces can provide for the safety of their own citizens and when Iraq is not a safe haven for terrorists to plot new attacks against our nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: OK, all right. Joining us now from Washington is Republican strategist Cheri Jacobus and Democratic consultant Victor Kamber. Good morning to both of you.
CHERI JACOBUS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Good morning.
HARRIS: Well, Cheri, what do you think? Have you -- what have you made of the speeches over the last week or so? Is it just what the country has needed to hear from its commander in chief?
JACOBUS: I think it's what he the country needed to hear. I think it's what our troops overseas needed to hear and the Iraqi people. I'm very, very pleased to see the White House starting to push back on some of the attacks, the political attacks on them so I think these speeches, the rollout of these speeches are a very positive thing. It's a good start. There obviously has to be more, but I think it's a very good outline that the president has presented.
HARRIS: OK, Cheri, Victor, what do you think? What have you heard in these speeches?
VICTOR KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Well, I've heard that two and a half years later he's saying what I would define as victory, I would totally agree with me. That is victory but it's unachievable and I wish he would acknowledge that to the American public.
HARRIS: Unachievable.
KAMBER: Absolutely unachievable.
HARRIS: Unachievable, why?
KAMBER: Well, his own definition of it, to stabilize a nation, where there's no threats of terrorists, to bring about a government that allows the taking care of its own people, we're seeing it right now. I mean, without our presence there today, it is an unstable nation. The killings that are going on, we have lost 2,000. We've injured 15,000. We've killed over 25,000 to 30,000 civilians in the country and it goes on daily. We just lost four yesterday. This is not a country that's going to be stabilized. We're looking for another Israel in the mid east and it's not going to be Israel.
JACOBUS: Vick, you're absolutely wrong on that. I think it's disingenuous to try and have an honest discussion about what's happening in Iraq without acknowledging some of the positives, the fact that you've got he per capita income up double since 2003. You've gotten more people using the Internet and telephones. You actually have -- I mean you didn't even mention the fact that we've got these elections coming up, the third successful elections in Iraq in a few days. These people, against all odds are going to go out and vote. They fought hard for democracy. They fought right alongside U.S. troops and allies for this. This is huge, huge, huge.
HARRIS: Cheri, let me jump in just a second here. Cheri, let me ask you this question. We know that the elections are coming up on the 15th, right around the corner, but we have seen other votes. We've seen other elections and I think we've all had a sense that things would get better, demonstrably better after each of those votes and it doesn't feel as if the situation on the ground has gotten there.
JACOBUS: Just the fact that we're in a situation where we're having these votes shows that there has been measurable success, but nobody ever said this was going to be easy, and when we start talking about whether war is popular or not, I'm worried for the soul of our country if we ever had a popular war, but some things are necessary. But I think it's important to acknowledge the successes that we have had. Just the other day we had citizens, private citizens in Ramadi arrest or capture a high-ranking al Qaeda official on their own and hand him over. The people of Iraq want this. They are grateful, and they understand how difficult it is and I think that it's important that we have a little bit more of an honest discussion here in this country about the successes that we are having.
KAMBER: Cheri, I agree with you, we should have an honest debate. Eighty percent of the Iraqi people want us out of that country, 80 percent.
JACOBUS: The numbers in the poll that you're talking about are a little off.
KAMBER: And the fact that you say there's elections, the only way the elections can be held and have been held is because we have troops there to guard people.
HARRIS: Let's do this. Let's do this. I promise you guys if the debate was good we'd hold it over until we come back after break. We're going to do that, but we want you to weigh in on all that we're talking about this morning. Our e-mail question to you this morning, how do you define victory in Iraq? Send us your thoughts, weekends@cnn.com. We'll take a break and we'll come back with our guest Cheri Jacobus and Victor Kamber, but first, this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: OK. All morning here on CNN, the Iraqi people tell us what they think about the American president and they're sending a clear message to President Bush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAJEM SABBAR ALI, 25-YEAR OLD STUDENT (through translator): On the country it's not a victory. We got rid of the previous regime, but it was replaced by another regime. There's no democracy really. Beside (ph) the security situation is bad. We have bad living standards. (INAUDIBLE) has increased, so the situation is worse than it was under the previous regime.
Occupation forces should leave Iraq. This is how we see our victory, otherwise, it can be a victory. Multinational forces should leave Iraq as soon as possible. My message to Mr. Bush is to take his troops out of Iraq as soon as possible and if he has a new speech he should determine a timetable for the American troops to withdraw from Iraq in a short period of time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: OK. Back to our debate now with Republican strategist Cheri Jacobus and Democratic consultant Victor Kamber. Cheri, let me come back to you for a moment. You said that no one promised us that this would be easy but you know what? I think part of the problem that many in the country are having with the war is that I believe we were, the people were led to believe that it might be relatively simple to go in and get rid of Saddam and to put a new government in there, and that talk of us being greeted as liberators and flowers and this, that and the other just really has not turned out to be that way at all.
JACOBUS: Well, in the early stages actually some of that did happen. The shock and awe part of this was at least on the surface it appeared to be relatively easy. So you know, I think people did have expectations that this would be a lot easier than it has been. Some people did and they would be mistaken, but I want to just say something about the gentleman that was just on and talking about how bad things are in Iraq, that the facts really don't -- I'm sure people are split in Iraq on this as well, but the facts really don't bear out what he was claiming.
The economy is doing very well there. You have five times more people using automobiles than when Saddam was in power, five times more telephone subscribers, 32 times more people using the Internet. They really are on the right track. Maybe it hasn't hit everyone there. Maybe this is somebody who wasn't doing well before economically, but the fact of the matter is they are doing better and Iraqi troops more and more are taking over responsibility for military activities there. In those areas where they've taken over, there's even reports of a reduction in suicide bombings. So there's some good things happening in Iraq.
HARRIS: Victor, jump in here.
KAMBER: What I find ironic is to equate who has -- excuse me -- who has an automobile and who has a phone as doing better. The country is still under attack, under siege. The troops are not training the way that we would like them to. They're not taking over the way we'd like. We have no ability to leave that country. That citizen of Iraq was exactly right, and I am not one to say let's take one citizen and make him the spokesperson for the entire country, but he is exactly right, that for Iraq to be free, we have to be gone and if we were gone today, there'd be more massacres, more problems. The original question was, were people led to believe that this would be fairly easy? We know they were. The "mission accomplished" was after 65 days. The worst part is the people who were led to believe it would be easy are the people in power, the Pentagon, the White House, not just the American people. They had a plan to get rid of Saddam Hussein. They had no plan to get out and they still have no plan to get out. We're there for a long haul, a long haul.
JACOBUS: The plan is for victory and I think that the goals that the president's laid out are realistic and it's not going to be based on when Howard Dean or you or Nancy Pelosi or Cindy Sheehan says is victory because you'll never say it's a victory.
KAMBER: I understand.
JACOBUS: It will be based on the recommendations and the analysis of those nonpartisan military presence on the ground.
KAMBER: Cheri, I understood what the president said, what victory is and what the president said, his definition of victory, we will be there for many years, many hundreds of millions of dollars (INAUDIBLE).
HARRIS: Cheri, Cheri and Victor, how about a simpler standard? How about running water? How about utilities that work? How about electricity for all Iraqis? For a lot of folks, Iraqis on the ground, that would be a victory.
JACOBUS: And they have more than...
KAMBER: ... in New Orleans if we could do that, let alone Iraq.
JACOBUS: ... more than 300 water and sewer projects in the works now, 3400 schools opening. They are doing the right things Iraq. It's not happening overnight, but I think what's important is that we look at the military leaders on the ground and what they have to say and listen to them, rather than the political folks that are opposing the president in this country, because I don't think they're being completely honest. Some are, some aren't but I think the words of Howard Dean, the things that Nancy Pelosi has been saying is bad for their party and I think it's bad for Americans and there are a lot of Democrats that feel the same and want to (INAUDIBLE) get them off the camera.
KAMBER: There are good Americans who have a different view from the president. Their goal is to protect American lives and we are spending billions of dollars we don't have.
HARRIS: Let's leave it there, good debate this morning, Sunday morning. Everybody's awake now, that's for sure. Cheri good to see you, Victor, good to see you. Thanks for the spirited debate this morning and once again to our e-mail question, we want to hear from you on all of this. How do you define victory in Iraq? Send us your thoughts, weekend@cnn.com.
NGUYEN: They're just as fired up as those two were. So it's going to be an interesting morning. So let's get right to it shall we. Here's a check of some of the other stories that we're following for you.
A series of blasts shakes thousands of Londoners out of their beds and sends a massive plume of toxic smoke into the air. The explosions at a suburban fuel depot blew doors off their hinges and shattered windows for miles. At least 36 people are injured and police believe it was an accident, but it is still unclear how it all started.
Federal investigators say a key braking system on a Southwest Airlines jet may be partially to blame for Thursday's deadly runway accident in Chicago. The pilots told them that the thrust reversers didn't immediately kick in when they landed. Now the jet skidded off the runway into a busy intersection, killing a six-year-old boy.
And finally, comedic giant Richard Pryor has died of a heart attack. He was 65 years old. Pryor was known for turning his pain into comedy. He suffered from multiple sclerosis and will be very missed.
Well, let's talk about snow, rain, clouds, sun? Yes, sun? What is in store for the rest of the weekend? We hope some sun. Brad Huffines joins us in a few minutes with a complete look at the weather outside.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: Well it began with a dream and a few talented feet, as you can see there. Forty years later, the Alvin Ailey American dance theater is a cultural mainstay, bringing the art of interpretive dancing drama back to the people. Earlier this year, the dance theater opened a huge facility where 600 eager students are striving to be the next generation of great dancers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NGUYEN (voice-over): Polish and poise, agility and beauty, form and finesse, all courtesy of the Alvin Ailey American dance theater. In its 47-year history, the company's been seen by over 21 million people in 48 states and in 68 countries. Now, for the first time, they have a permanent home to come home to. The 77,000 square foot structure of glass and light is the largest facility dedicated to dance in the country, the Joan Wile (ph) center for dance officially opened in March in Manhattan. It cost $54 million, includes offices, a 5,000 square foot performance space and 12 dance studios. Over 600 students, ages 3 to 17 attend classes here. Their training helps them move into Ailey's more advanced divisions and to become professional dancers. Ailey's artistic director says dance teaches children valuable lessons.
JUDITH JAMISON, ARTISTIC DIRECTOR: Learning about dance and the arts is something that really straightens kids out, that makes them, if you catch them really young enough, it makes them understand that they're capable of being strong, about being focused, about making decisions, about controlling issues that are important.
NGUYEN: One member of Ailey's board says it's all part of a mission.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alvin always said the mission is to bring dance back to the people and now we can offer classes to the public where we couldn't do it before.
NGUYEN: The Alvin she's referring to is Alvin Ailey. He started the company in 1958, danced for many years and created 79 ballets, before dying at the age of 58, in 1989. Ailey's most famous work, "Revelations." The signature piece has been called a masterpiece.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NGUYEN: And joining me now from New York City is Judith Jamison, artistic director of the Alvin Ailey American dance theater. I want to thank you for being with us Ms. Jamison.
JAMISON: Thank you.
NGUYEN: Well, you know what? We listened to this piece and you talked about how dance transforms lives. It's really transformed yours because you are quite -- you're a director now but you're quite the dancer, too. Let's list, prime time Emmy, a Kennedy Center honor, I mean the list goes on. You danced with the theater for 15 years, and --
JAMISON: Yes, I did.
NGUYEN: Ailey was your mentor. What would he think of this new building? It's just fabulous.
JAMISON: I think he'd think the world of this new building. I think he would think the world of his 30 dancers who made this new building possible. I think the fact that this man from Rogers, Texas, started out with eight dancers at the 92nd street "Y" 47 years ago and now there are 30 dancers in the Alvin Ailey American dance theater with a repertory of so many pieces, over 200 pieces. This is an amazing miracle that came from one man's vision about celebrating the African-American experience and the modern dance tradition of this country and also being able to communicate with children.
NGUYEN: Yes.
JAMISON: And making sure that the next generation of young people understand how valuable they are to the world that they are in.
NGUYEN: And what exactly are they learning there? We know they're learning to dance but to express themselves, give us more examples of what you're teaching there, how the legacy lives on.
JAMISON: Well, number one, we're not only teaching children, we're teaching -- I think the oldest student in the school must be about 75 years old.
NGUYEN: Oh, really?
JAMISON: But the youngest, three years old. NGUYEN: Wow!
JAMISON: Three years old, you know, and there's everything from salsa to Graham technique to Horton technique to ballet, to west African Senegalese dancing to hip-hop, to (INAUDIBLE), you name it, yoga. You could learn any and everything, but basically, we are the Alvin Ailey American dance theater and that is the criteria upon which all of this is based. The excellence of the primary company, the Alvin Ailey American dance theater and Ailey II, which is directed by Celia Waters. The Ailey school, which is directed by Denise Jefferson is just this magnificent building with these 12 studios and a black box theater inside of it that seats 299 people.
NGUYEN: It has it all and it on top of that, big names are coming there to rehearse for Broad way shows, Beyonce one of them.
JAMISON: Yes.
NGUYEN: Who else is on the list?
JAMISON: Oh gosh, Taye Diggs, Bill T. Jones from the modern dance world, you name it. I could name drop about our beautiful building.
NGUYEN: And Judith Jamison of course, she's on that list.
JAMISON: But the most beautiful thing about our building is that it is a welcome place full of light. It is our palace. It is the welcoming door for dance, for excellence in dance in New York City and it is our permanent home and I always thank our board, but graciously I thank my dancers who are the best dancers in the world and for 47 years, we have made this possible and I thank them.
NGUYEN: You know they're going to continue to be because it's excellence in dance and expression, and that's what you really foster there. Thank you.
JAMISON: We'll see you, we'll see you in Atlanta.
NGUYEN: Yeah, you're coming out here.
JAMISON: We'll be on tour all across the country starting in January.
NGUYEN: You got to stop by and visit us.
JAMISON: Please.
NGUYEN: All right, well you have just the happiest of holidays and thanks for joining us.
JAMISON: Same to you.
NGUYEN: Tony, great, fabulous dancing.
HARRIS: Wow! That lady can do it. NGUYEN: She sure can.
HARRIS: Let's get a quick check of weather now, Brad Huffines upstairs in the CNN weather center. Good morning Brad.
BRAD HUFFINES, CNN METEOROLOGIST: From dancing to the browns and Bengals, how does that sound? Today's the big day by the way.
HARRIS: That's right.
HUFFINES: Radar in Cleveland, this is what it looks like from radar perspective. Lots of snow showers through. Let me show what it looks like right now, live in Cleveland as we're looking outside at a snowy day. Between one to three inches of new stuff may fall and that will make it even a more interesting day to watch the football game at Brown Stadium, Paul Brown stadium, 1:00 today. Browns-Bengals in the snow. Here is your forecast for Cleveland just in case you want to know, 34 degrees for today, 25 for tomorrow. So today is the warm day with some more snow showers.
Around the rest of the country, windy weather across the plains, sunshine southwest, southeast only from the great lakes to the northeast, Tony are we starting to see the snow showers. Nothing terribly heavy, but watch out driving because there will be some slick roads.
HARRIS: OK, Brad, thank you.
In the Jewish tradition, there is no record of a woman ever writing a torah scroll, the religion's holy book but that's all about to change in the next hour of CNN SUNDAY MORNING. In our "faces of faith" meet a woman who traveled the world in hopes of writing the sacred book. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: "Now in the News": The stench of burning oil casting a pall over a London suburb. We're monitoring a developing story this morning. Clouds of acrid smoke follow a series of explosions at a large oil storage terminal. The blast shattered windows for miles around. Three dozen people are injured. British police say it appears to be to be an accident.
In a surprise announcement this morning, Iran is offering the U.S. a share in building a new nuclear power plant. It's a bid to head off White House opposition to its atomic program. Tehran also wants to build other nuclear power plants in southern Iran with foreign help.
Iraq imposes strict security precautions for Thursday's parliamentary elections. Measures announced this morning include closing all borders and airports, extending curfew hours and banning in-country travel. The restrictions are in place from Tuesday to early Saturday.
Now an update on a breaking news story from yesterday morning, just seven people survive a Nigerian plane crash; 103 others are dead, including one American, says the U.S. embassy. The plane was carrying a large group of schoolchildren returning home for the holidays when it crashed during a storm.
NGUYEN: Coming up this hour, the first known female torah scribe and her quest to write the sacred book. Some say she's violating Jewish tradition. Her amazing story ahead.
From the CNN Center on this Sunday morning, December 11th. Good morning, everybody. I'm Betty Nguyen.
HARRIS: And good morning. I'm Tony Harris. It's 8:00 a.m. here in Atlanta. Good morning, Betty.
NGUYEN: Good morning.
HARRIS: Hi, good to see you. It's 1 p.m. in London, which is where we start this morning.
NGUYEN: Explosions rock Londoners out of their beds, blow roofs off homes and send a toxic cloud of smoke into the air. Just look at this video.
Now, fire fighters are struggling to put out a massive fire, fueled by the blast at a fuel depot, which is north of London. CNN's Paula Newton joins us from the scene with this developing story.
I guess the big news, right now is, letting this thing burn out?
NEWTON: They really have to starve it is what they're saying. They have many fire crews out there. Many people on the scene saying they've never seen anything like this.
Obviously a huge concern is what you see directly behind me, a huge plume of black smoke. It's now starting to settle in over communities. They told people to stay indoors keep the windows closed, but telling people, older people, younger people, try to get to some shelters. They've set up a couple throughout the community.
And now they're just wondering where all this smoke is going to accumulate and where it's going to fall down. It's not really toxic, people are telling us. It is a very unpleasant type of taste in your mouth and does smell like burning oil. They're really only concerned though about people who have respiratory problems.
Top of mind, when everyone was rocked out of their bed this morning was terrorism. They now feel they can rule this out. This is a very large industrial accident, though, and that's going to burn behind me for hours, maybe even days -- Betty.
NGUYEN: Paula, you say it's not toxic. I know we were hearing that a little bit earlier. Do you know what exactly is burning at this fuel depot? I know there's different types of fuels. Do you know exactly which ones?
NEWTON: It is different types of fuel. Right now what's burning is mainly aviation fuel. What they've been trying to do is make sure the fire stays contained. They've been wetting down some of the other fuel depots around it to make sure they don't also ignite.
Right now, it is carcinogenic, but not toxic. The difference being is that it can cause irritations. But it isn't actually hazardous to ingest. If you were having a chemical fire it would be more serious at this point. That doesn't mean people with respiratory problems should be anywhere near this. It's kerosene really, is what's burning because it's aviation fuel -- Betty.
NGUYEN: The big concern is making sure people get out of that as soon as they can. You know, those evacuations, and really not breathe it in if you don't have to.
Paula, that goes for you, so we'll let you go and get inside. Thank you.
HARRIS: He brought real life and raw humor to the stage. Entertainers and comedy fans worldwide are mourning the loss of comedian Richard Pryor. He battled multiple sclerosis for nearly a decade and died yesterday after suffering a heart attack at his California home. Long-time friend and fellow comedian Paul Mooney said Pryor's spirit will live on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL MOONEY, PRYOR'S FRIEND, COMEDIAN: Everyone keeps saying, you know, that he's passed. We all have to leave, we all have to kick the bucket, but Richard is still here. Love doesn't die. Love is forever. And he was loved and so he'll be here forever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Comedian Richard Pryor, a legend who will be sorely missed. He was 65 years old. Young! Wow.
Coming up in our next hour, comedian Jonathan Slocumb joins us sharing the impact he had on his career and on generations of other entertainers. Jonathan Slocumb, he's in our 9 a.m. Eastern hour.
Former Senator Eugene McCarthy has died. He's remembered as a man that stood up for peace. McCarthy's 1968 run for president galvanized opposition to the Vietnam war. The Johnson administration, he said, seems to have set no limit to the price which it is willing to pay for military victory. The former senator from Minnesota suffered from Parkinson's disease. He died early Saturday in Washington. He was 89.
NGUYEN: California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger still hasn't stepped in to granted clemency to former Crips gang leader Stanley Tookie Williams. And time is running out. He is set to be executed Tuesday. Williams has been on death row for 24 years, convicted of killing four people. His supporters say he should live because of his commitment to anti-gang work.
In an interview with "Newsweek" magazine, Williams was asked why he's fighting to stay alive just so he can spend the rest of his life in prison, if that's granted. He said, quote, "First and foremost I have the heart, the fortitude and redemption to fight. I'm not culpable, I'm not guilty, I'm not a quitter. I've been fighting all my life."
HARRIS: Stories making news "Across America" this morning. The pilots of that plane that crashed through a fence and into Chicago traffic tell investigators they had apparent brake problems. The Southwest Airlines jet skidded off a runway during a snowstorm Thursday killing a boy in a car.
An actor that appeared on the "Sopranos" and starred in the in "A Bronx Tale" has been arrested. Police took Lillo Brancato and another man into custody in connection with the shooting death of an off-duty New York City police officer. All three had been wounded in the shoot- out in front of the officer's Bronx home. The officer later died.
Shouting "we're back" hundreds of Hurricane Katrina survivors marched in New Orleans Saturday demanding that the government move faster to rebuild their city. The sound of jazz mixed with the shouting, as protesters voiced fears poor people will be left out of rebuilding plans.
NGUYEN: Relatives and friends of four Western hostages in Iraq are holding vigils and appealing for their freedom. American Tom Fox is one of four Christian Peacemakers kidnapped in Iraq. They've been in Iraq for more than two years, investigating allegations of abuse against Iraqi detainees. CNN was approached by the Fox family and asked to air this message from Fox's daughter Katherine.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KATHERINE FOX, HOSTAGE'S DAUGHTER: On November 26th, 2005, my father, Tom Fox, was taken hostage in Iraq. He is there as a representative of Christian Peacemaker Teams, who is a long-standing guest of your country.
Both my father and I believed that Iraqi people have legitimate concerns regarding the U.S. government's occupation and presence in Iraq. We believe that these grievances, however, will not be resolved by taking my father's life.
As he and I and our family have previously stated, my father is not willing to sacrifice his dedication to the Iraqi people for any armed assistance from the U.S. government. Our entire family is making a personal appeal to those who have taken him.
Your recent extension of the timeline verifies my father's belief that the Iraqi people are honorable and just. This extension is indicates a willingness to discuss the safe release of my father. In order to secure his release, for which you are responsible, my family as well as Christian Peacemaker Teams are willing to discuss this matter at any time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NGUYEN: And again, that was Katherine Fox, daughter of one of the Christian peace activists held hostage in Iraq more than two weeks now. The kidnappers threatened to kill the hostages by yesterday, but that deadline came and went with no word on their fate. "CNN Presents: 1,000 Days in Iraq": The country faces a crucial vote on its road to democracy and President George Bush continues to defend U.S. efforts in Iraq. "CNN Presents: 1,000 Days In Iraq", that is tonight at 8:00 p.m. Eastern.
HARRIS: Iraqi students tell us what they think about the American presence in their country. Some sending a message to President George Bush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GHAYDA TALAL, 19-YEAR-OLD STUDENT (through translator): God willing, we will defeat the terrorisms in Iraq with the help of U.S. and Iraqi troops.
Yes, we are on the road to victory. The strongest evidence is the coming elections as it will be free elections and everyone will vote for whoever he wants. And God willing, we are on the road to victory.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Well, that brings us to this morning's e-mail question. How do you define victory in Iraq? Send us your thoughts. Weekends@cnn.com.
NGUYEN: A woman writing a Torah scribe. Yeah, sounds taboo. One lady says it's not just a man's job. The first female Torah scribe joins us live. That's right, the first. A look at why her quest for history wasn't received with open arms.
(WEATHER FORECAST)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: They lost their homes, their belongings, even their loved ones. Some Hurricane Katrina survivors are convinced racism slowed the disaster response. Coming up in our next hour, one evacuee speaks out after testifying at a congressional hearing. CNN SUNDAY MORNING continues in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: Take a look at these pictures shot by an amateur photographer. You can see the destruction up close following multiple blasts at one of Britain's largest fuel depots. Explosions began more than seven hours ago and the fire could continue for days. It is being called an industrial accident. Dozens have been injured. No deaths are being reported.
A surprise and possibly tactical move from Iran. Its foreign minister says U.S. contractors can bid to build an Iranian nuclear plant. The U.S. and the European Union oppose nukes in Iran fearing Iran intends to build nuclear weapons.
He made us laugh by recognizing our prejudices. His great voice is silent this morning. Comedian Richard Pryor died of a heart attack. He was pioneer and he suffered from multiple sclerosis in his last years. Going to be missed.
HARRIS: That's for sure.
Let's bring in that tower cam. Can we do that, Dee? (ph) As we toss to Brad here and take a look at weather. This is the Shore Way. Our thanks to WKYC. That's it. It runs, let me see, it is east and west. Just to the right of that, Betty, of that shot there, that's Lake Erie right there.
NGUYEN: You can see -- I guess that's fog or is that precipitation?
HARRIS: In the fog, there in the back of the picture there, you would see the terminal tower, downtown Cleveland, Ohio. Can't see it because of all the fog and snow. And they're playing football there today.
Is that right, Brad?
NGUYEN: You know everything about Cleveland. Did you work for the visitor's bureau there?
HARRIS: No, no, no. I worked in the city for a lot of years.
NGUYEN: I see.
HARRIS: Froze my butt off, for a lot of days.
NGUYEN: And you'd be freezing it this morning, wouldn't you?
HARRIS: Oh, yeah.
NGUYEN: Brad, how cold is it there.
HUFFINES: I have to break into a dance right now. In the mid 20s right now. It's a balmy 25 in Cleveland.
NGUYEN: Yeah, yeah.
HUFFINES: Sounds good, doesn't it?
HARRIS: The heavy stuff will move in about an hour.
HUFFINES: They have high hopes.
NGUYEN: Stay inside, Cleveland.
HUFFINES: Hot apple pie in the skies hopes today. Thank you, very much. That song will be with me the rest of the day. You know, you have to hear the end of a song to stop it.
(WEATHER FORECAST)
HARRIS: One woman's quest for history in Jewish tradition is actually making history. What she's doing and why, that's coming up in our "Faces of Faith" segment. NGUYEN: But first to our e-mail question of the day. How do you define victory in Iraq? Broad question. Tell us what you think about it. How do you define victory in Iraq. Send your thoughts to weekends@cnn.com. We'll read those responses straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: As Jews around the world prepare to celebrate the Festival of Lights we have a very special "Faces of Faith" for you this weekend. It centers around the sacred ritual of writing a Torah scroll, the holiest of Jewish texts.
In the Jewish tradition there is no record of women filling this role and many Jews say there is absolutely no room for negotiation. Aviel Barclay is doing her best to change that. She is the only known certified Hebrew scribe in the world and hers is an amazing story.
Aviel, good morning.
AVIEL BARCLAY, HEBREW TORAH SCRIBE: Good morning, Tony.
HARRIS: Good to see you. Good to talk to you. Love the name.
BARCLAY: Thank you.
HARRIS: Great name. You're a first. How does it feel to be a first?
BARCLAY: Well, I may be the first woman to write a sacred Torah, but turns out I'm not the first woman to fulfill the role of being a Jewish ritual scribe in Jewish history, which is actually good news.
Because a lot of traditional Judaism is based on precedence, so since there seems to have been at least seven women that I've been able to discover, with my limited resources, who have fulfilled this role on behalf of other Jews, then it's actually better for all of us that this sort of work has been done before by women.
HARRIS: Yeah. You feel like you had to feel like you're part of an exclusive group then?
BARCLAY: Hopefully, it will become less exclusive as our history wears on.
HARRIS: Being a Torah scribe, I have to ask you, what is Jewish law say about this? Is this the kind of work you should be doing?
BARCLAY: Well, that depends on who you ask. To be fair, majority opinion in Jewish law does say that -- either that women shouldn't write sefri (ph) Torah, that is the plural for a Torah scrolls. Or if they do, it shouldn't be used in a public torah reading.
However, there is a minority opinion brought down along time ago by some very heavy rabbis that that say that it's permitted. There is some wiggle room. However, the majority opinion is generally what everybody goes by in traditional Judaism. HARRIS: You know, I'm looking at you, you're a young woman. What inspired you? I don't know, I guess, I suspected you might be an older woman that it might have been a calling that came to you later in life. What inspired you to do this kind of work?
BARCLAY: Well, honestly, the first time I ever saw the Hebrew alphabet was when I was three years old and saw "Fiddler on the Roof" about 100 times.
HARRIS: "Fiddler on the Roof"?
BARCLAY: And my father's theater, yes. My father used to run movie theaters. So, I saw that, and that was the first time I saw images of the Hebrew letters and they just burned into my brain. And those images stayed with me into my adulthood and that is when I realized that this is perhaps the work I'm meant to do.
HARRIS: You know, it's interesting. This is not something if there is conflict as to whether or not you should actually be doing this, it must have been rather difficult to find someone to teach you to do this.
BARCLAY: Definitely. When I first started looking it took me about a year and a half. And I exhausted all my resources. I wasn't able to find anybody that would be willing to teach me. It had nothing really do with my religious observance level. It had to do with my gender.
So, I gave up temporarily, not knowing where to turn next. I was contacted by a sofer (ph), a Jewish ritual scribe in Jerusalem. Who had seen my Hebrew calligraphy work on the Internet. And through that, we were able to begin a beautiful mentoring relationship.
HARRIS: I have to ask you one last question, before we're out of time.
BARCLAY: Sure.
HARRIS: How difficult, I'm looking, how difficult how painstaking, are there really 4,000 rules to writing a Torah scroll?
BARCLAY: Approximately, yeah. It's very painstaking. It's the definition of painstaking. But it's holy work, so it's got to have a lot of lines defining it.
HARRIS: Man! It is good to see you. Good to meet you. And, boy, the best in your pursuits.
BARCLAY: Thank you. Thanks for having me on.
HARRIS: Thanks for being with us. Yes, our pleasure.
NGUYEN: That's really remarkable.
This Thursday, Iraqis will go to the polls to elect their new government. Is this one step closer to bringing U.S. troops home? This morning, we're asking, how do you define victory in Iraq? That's our e-mail question. Send us your thoughts. Weekends@cnn.com.
In fact, we got a few of them right now.
HARRIS: A few? Are you kidding me?
NGUYEN: Here's the first one from Norman. He says simply -- "Troops home, oil continues to flow."
HARRIS: OK, this is from W. Scott, who writes, "Victory is when, one, there is a representative democracy. Two, Iraq can defend itself from internal and external enemies. Three, the majority of our troops come home. And four, Iraq is free to join the world community and make alliances and trade agreements with whomever they choose."
NGUYEN: A. Solomon writes: "Victory in Iraq is like saying "Peace on Earth", a nice concept, but it's not going to happen. Too bad our government didn't see that (again)."
And of course we want you to keep sending those thoughts in to us. Again, the question, how do you define victory in Iraq. E-mail us, weekends@cnn.com.
HARRIS: Well, he changed the world of comedy. Coming up at 9 a.m. Eastern, remembering Richard Pryor. One comedian looks back at his life and legacy.
NGUYEN: But first, the killer flu virus, is America prepared and what can you do to protect yourself? "House Call" with Doctor Sanjay Gupta and your top stories straight ahead.
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