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CNN Sunday Morning

Saddam Hussein Defiant in Court

Aired January 29, 2006 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Whatever language you speak, you get the message. He is not too happy about what's going on.
A defiant Saddam Hussein argues with the new judge, who is arguing back. This is the judge who is presiding over the former dictator's war crimes trial. We've got the latest from Baghdad in just a moment.

From the CNN Center, this is CNN SUNDAY MORNING. It's January 29.

Good morning, everybody. I'm Betty Nguyen.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Tony Harris.

Boy, do we have a show for you this morning. What a news program.

7:00 a.m. in Atlanta, 1:00 p.m. in Poland; and 3:00 p.m. in Baghdad.

Thank you for being with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SADDAM HUSSEIN, FMR. IRAQI DICTATOR (through translator): I told you, this is my right, and I have the right to give up that right if I wish. I refuse this order, and if you stay, that means that you are a bunch of evils.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: OK. Betty, here's the thing. We are oftentimes accused of over-hyping a situation. It's too much, it's too much.

NGUYEN: Making it bigger than what it is.

HARRIS: Exactly.

(CROSSTALK)

NGUYEN: There's no way to deny that fireworks went off today in the courtroom with Saddam Hussein. Not only with him, his defense team, his half-brother, the judge. Everybody went at it. HARRIS: Let's just say chaos in the courtroom.

NGUYEN: Yes.

HARRIS: And let's sort it out for you right now. In the courtroom following the proceedings for us is CNN's Aneesh Raman.

Aneesh, sort of -- first of all, let me ask you, is the court back in session? And then maybe backtrack us through all of the fireworks.

ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Tony, good morning.

The court just got into session about 20 minutes ago, into the afternoon session. They're hearing the second witness so far today, another complainant witness, someone testifying behind that blue curtain about the alleged atrocities in July, 1982. But as you guys were saying, this was the most dramatic day in terms of what took place inside the courtroom this morning.

A new chief judge was in place, intent clearly on bringing order on what has been up until now a chaotic process. At the start of the session this morning he outlined a number of new rules for the session, including no political speeches by any of the defendants. Well, that rule was broken within moments.

Barzan Hassan al-Tikriti, Saddam Hussein's half-brother who had been talking about the fact that he had cancer, wasn't getting adequate medical treatment, then called the court "the daughter of a whore." That prompted the judge immediately to silence him, and he essentially had him thrown out of the courtroom.

Barzan Hassan al-Tikriti forcibly removed. You don't see it in the video because they don't want to show the faces of the guards. But we saw it in the courtroom.

Barzan al-Tikriti clearly, visibly red with rage as four guards dragged him out of the courtroom. That prompted all of the defense attorneys to stand up. They began screaming.

One of them from Jordan said that this entire court is unjust. The judge then had that defense lawyer also forcibly removed.

After that happened, the rest of the defense lawyers walked out amid a very ominous warning from the new chief judge, who said, "If you as the defense attorneys walk out of this courtroom, you will not be allowed back, not just today, but for any further court session.

So a huge question now looms in terms of not just Ramsey Clark's participation, but, of course, Khalil Dulaimi's, Saddam Hussein's chief attorney.

Well, after the defense lawyers walked out, the court immediately brought in six court-appointed defense lawyers. That prompted Saddam Hussein to stand up. He rejected his court-appointed defense lawyers. The judge said, "We're going to proceed." You heard that sound earlier in the show where Saddam Hussein called the defense lawyers evil for representing him even though he didn't want them. And then Saddam Hussein said, "I'm leaving the court." The judge said, "No, you are being allowed to leave," and they bickered back and forth as to whether Saddam leaving by choice or whether the court was forcing him out. But either way, Saddam left and brought with him two other co-defendants, Taha Yassin Ramadan, the former Iraqi vice president, and Awad Bandar, the former chief judge of the revolutionary court.

So, after the dust settled, four of the eight defendants were seated, the four least-known, least-vocal defendants. All of them former Dujail Ba'ath Party officials.

On the defense side, six court-appointed defense lawyers who, for the first time, chose not to cross-examine the witness. And the prosecution plowing ahead with its case.

So we are on witness number two of today, further victim's statement of someone detailing torture endured in July 1982 after that failed assassination attempt. An earlier witness talked about their 2-year-old baby being thrown into solitary confinement, that while they were in prison they were forced to sleep on the bones of those that were there before.

But again, high drama at the start of this session, Tony, which now leaves a lingering question, what happens tomorrow and does Saddam Hussein show up?

HARRIS: Wow. Wow.

All right, Aneesh. Just a couple of notes again. Barzan Hassan al-Tikriti yells out at the proceedings are what, "the daughter of a whore?"

RAMAN: Exactly, at which point the judge said that is not allowed, that type of language will not permissible in this court.

HARRIS: Wow.

RAMAN: Barzan Hassan al-Tikriti actually followed up and said, "When I say daughter of a whore, I don't mean it in the common sense," and that actually sparked some laughter in the media room, especially by the Iraqi journalists there.

HARRIS: Well, what does that mean? Brother.

All right. Well, I know you have got to run to get to CNN International. I appreciate it, Aneesh. Thank you so much for that report.

My goodness.

RAMAN: Thanks, guys.

HARRIS: All right. You've seen the events unfold, Hussein kicked out of the courtroom, the defense walks out, the first judge resigns. And remember last week, when several witnesses failed to even show up?

So, what do you think of the unfolding developments in the Saddam Hussein trial? We'd like to hear your thoughts. E-mail us.

NGUYEN: It's just bizarre.

HARRIS: There's a menu here of items you can choose from.

Here's the e-mail address: weekends@cnn.com. We will read your comments in just a moment.

NGUYEN: We now want to get you to another developing story. This one out of Poland we told you about just a few minutes ago.

Temperatures well below freezing, and nightfall hampered rescue efforts in a southern town overnight. Here is some new video coming into CNN of this roof collapse. The roof of this exhibition hall gave way with hundreds still inside.

CNN's Paula Newton joins us now with the latest on this.

Are people still being pulled out from the rubble, Paula?

PAULA NEWTON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Unfortunately not. It's a grim situation here. Right now, they've officially moved this operation from a search and rescue to a recovery mission.

They've had dogs in and out here. They've had people with their bare hands. They have tried all they can to try and pull people out. They feel that right now the search and rescue dogs are only able to find bodies and no one alive.

We've got about 65 people confirmed dead, about 140 injured. They still have not compiled the list of exactly who was missing and who could still be trapped under this building right here.

You know, the scene that was described was entirely chaotic. More than 500 people, as you said, everyone scrambling to get out. Some people broke windows, some people went through emergency exits.

But the bottom line is that whole families were divided inside there, some injured, and others don't know where their family members are. It's a really depressing scene here this morning -- afternoon -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Take us back to what was happening inside this exhibition hall and if you know what caused the collapse.

NEWTON: Well, it's all a matter of debate right now. What was going on is this is the second day of an expo, it was for racing pigeons. It's a very popular thing here. It's also very popular for people to come with their entire families and children.

And they put the pigeons on display. At times they have demonstrations.

It was late in the afternoon. The expo was about to close. But there were still, as I said, hundreds in there.

The speculation is that there was snow, too much snow on the roof, or structurally there was a problem with the extreme temperatures. But really, from looking at this building, there would be absolute -- this is absolutely nothing short of a structural catastrophe in terms of the engineering and the supports.

The entire building fell in on top of itself, and right now, on some of the -- what the survivors were describing were whole sheets of twisted metal on top of them, on top of structural beams. I mean, there -- this should have been able to sustain any kind of snow that was on the roof, or indeed, temperatures of minus 15, minus 25 Fahrenheit, and it just didn't.

Right now, they've started an investigation, and today is an official day of mourning in Poland -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Yes, just a horrifying situation. Paula Newton, thank you for that update.

HARRIS: OK.

In other news now, in Arkansas, a mother is arrested after she confessed to smothering her three children. Investigators were sent to this house yesterday after getting a call from the children's father who lives in New York. He told police that his wife called him and confessed to killing their twin boys and daughter, all under age 8.

When police arrived, the woman collapsed in front of them. Police say she had ingested some sort of toxic substance. Investigators found a note but wouldn't say whether it contained a motive for the killings.

Call it a woman's intuition or divine intervention, but it was pure persistence of an Atlanta woman that led to the arrest of a couple accused of sexually abusing two children in Alabama. In this store surveillance video, you can see the suspect at the counter and the young victim beside him.

The woman who was in the store at the same time suspected something wasn't right between the two and called police. Investigators checked out the suspect and initially found nothing suspicious, but the woman refused to give up. And after more digging, police say they discovered the male suspect had given them a false name and was actually a wanted sex offender.

Jack Wiley (ph) and his companion, Glennna Marshall (ph), are accused of molesting the 17-year-old boy and 3-year-old girl in their care. Police believe there may be even more victims.

As for the two children involved in this case, there's hope they will recover from their ordeal. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF TRACY HAWSEY, CONECUH COUNTY, ALABAMA: Well, I can tell you, this -- this little girl is precious. If you could see her, you know, it's just amazing that -- and unbelievable that somebody would do the things that are -- the allegations are in this case.

I think she's going to -- she's going to do real well. I think she's resilient.

The other one that's involved in this, you know, I think it's going to take counseling. But I think these kids can pull through. They're some good-looking kids.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NGUYEN: Turning now to stories making news "Across America," a sad case of mistaken identity. An off-duty New York City police officer was shot three times by a fellow officer yesterday and is now in critical condition. The shooting happened when the off-duty officer was pointing a gun at a man outside a fast-food restaurant. Police say that man was among a group that attacked the officer inside.

There's no word on what started the fight.

Lucky to be alive in rural Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. A plane crashed into a barn, bringing fire crews and police scrambling. And believe it or not, the pilot and all three passengers walked away.

Now to eastern Washington State. A Chicago-bound Amtrak train derailed early yesterday. No serious injuries reported. Part of the track is being reported. The stranded passengers were bussed to Spokane, where they resumed their train trip east.

Nothing, Tony, stops Mardi Gras, right? Not even something as big as a hurricane and as whopping as Hurricane Katrina. But in Alabama, shop and bar owners are hoping New Orleans' scaled down plans -- the fact that New Orleans did scale down plans, they're hoping that will boost business in their state.

Mardi Gras festivities are planned along the Gulf Coast from Galveston, Texas, to Ft. Walton Beach, Florida.

HARRIS: And Betty, we are continuing to monitor the Saddam Hussein trial. Live pictures now from inside the courtroom. Chaos, confusion this morning, slurs, insults, folks storming out.

NGUYEN: Brawling.

HARRIS: Mere fistfights.

NGUYEN: It was really quite a circus today in court, but you know what? This has happened before. This is not the first time.

HARRIS: You're out of order. You're out of order. No, you're out of order.

NGUYEN: Everybody's out of order.

HARRIS: Just a...

NGUYEN: And then they walk out.

HARRIS: And then forcibly yanked out, in some cases.

All right. We'll continue to follow this story and bring you updates.

Still ahead, thousands of couples will try anything to have a baby, including buying fertility drugs on the black market.

NGUYEN: Have you heard about the Kmart connection? Passing pills in parking lots? It's a special investigative report you'll only see on CNN. And it's next.

Good morning, Bonnie.

BONNIE SCHNEIDER, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Good morning, Betty and Tony.

(WEATHER REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Man, oh, man. Live pictures now from inside the courtroom, the trial of Saddam Hussein and six other defendants. Man, what a morning.

There's the new chief judge. He quickly wielded a heavy hand in trying to establish order, but that blew out of the window in short order.

Slurs, insults, the whole proceedings being referred to as "the daughter of a whore." "You're evil." "You're evil." A co-defendant expelled and a defense attorney expelled.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUSSEIN (through translator): You are an Iraqi. Iraqi people respect their elders. I was your leader for 35 years. And now you intend to take him out? Shame on you!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I'm a judge and you are the defendant. And you abuse the trial. I'm here to enforce the law.

HUSSEIN: Do not saying, "I'm throwing you out." I asked to leave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: We had defendants, at least one defendant being yanked from the courtroom. The expulsion prompted Saddam Hussein and his entire defense team to walk out of the court.

In 15 minutes, the international law expert, Michael Scharf, who trained Saddam's lawyers, will join us live to talk about what's going on in that courtroom today.

NGUYEN: Time now to fast forward and give you a look at some of the stories you'll see in the news this week.

Monday, former Enron chief Ken Lay and CEO Jeff Skilling go on trial in Houston. Lay and Skilling face charges of fraud and conspiracy in the bankruptcy of energy giant Enron.

Now, Tuesday, President Bush delivers his fifth State of the Union Address. He's expected to focus on the recovery of the economy and improving health care.

And speaking of Congress, House Republicans meet on Thursday to elect a new majority leader to replace Tom DeLay. Representative Roy Blunt of Missouri and John Boehner of Ohio are the two frontrunners.

Want to get you caught up on the weather this morning. It is a Sunday.

A lot of people headed out today, Bonnie. What do you have on tap?

(WEATHER REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: In just a moment we'll have much more, including a guest on our developing story this morning out of Poland. We told you a few minutes ago about this roof collapse there at an exhibition hall for racing pigeons.

That was the show that was in that exhibition hall. Temperatures well below freezing. And nightfall hampering the rescue efforts. Afternoon now in Poland.

The roof of this exhibition hall just gave way under snow. Hundreds inside.

And I understand our guest is with us now, a guest who survived the catastrophe, Francis Nolmans.

Francis, good to talk to you.

FRANCIS NOLMANS, SURVIVOR: Nice to talk to you, too.

HARRIS: Well, I see that you're bandaged and look to be a little scuffed up, a little scarred up. My understanding is that you were working for your company inside, working a booth inside the exhibition hall when the collapse happened, correct?

NOLMANS: Yes. Yes, we had an exhibition stand there, because we want to market our products in the Eastern European countries. And this exhibition is the major one. It has a lot of visitors, so we were here for the next two races, and we were there, too, yesterday evening when all things happened.

HARRIS: OK, Francis, walk us through this. Describe what happened.

NOLMANS: What happened, it was about half past 5:00, I think. Most of the visitors already left the building. I think there were about 500 to 600 inside. Two hours earlier, it would be even worse, because at that point, I think there would be about 3,000 to 4,000. So most of them were already out.

Suddenly, I heard the sound of breaking glass. I turned around and I looked up and I saw the roof coming down on me.

The only thing I could think of is getting some shelter, and I was in the neighborhood of one of these pile-ons (ph) where the roof hangs up from, yes, and I said, if I could get inside that one, at least I will be cleared from all of the stuff that was falling down. So it happened, I could manage to get in. Everything fell down beside me. After 10 seconds, I could walk over the debris and go to the side and got out...

HARRIS: And Francis...

NOLMANS: ... with only some small injuries. But I still -- yes?

HARRIS: But Francis, tell us what you saw as you were walking out of the building. What did you see around you? Describe that scene as you were making your way out of the building.

NOLMANS: There was not -- there was not much to see because it was dark. Like, I only could orientate myself on the lights that were outside, because inside there was nothing to see. It was dark, stone dark. It was impossible to see anything.

Afterwards, when they came, the rescue teams, when they came with their big lights, I could see it was a mess all around. I was worried about my people. I still had five people inside.

I pointed the rescue people to the place where I supposed they were underneath all the stuff, and they managed to get them out one by one. It took them about an hour and a half before the last one who got stuck got out. Luckily, they all had only small cuts and bruises, small injuries.

HARRIS: And Francis, the early death toll -- yes, the early death toll stands at 65. Do you expect, knowing the number of people who were inside the building at the time of this collapse, do you expect that death toll number to climb considerably?

NOLMANS: I think it will climb, because I think the people in the center, I don't know how many were dead, because it was stands built up around the center, so I hadn't -- couldn't have a clear view of what was happening in the center of the building because my view over there was blocked. But I think that the ones that were in the center of the building didn't have a lot of chance to get out.

You had to be on the side, or you had to be in the neighborhood of one of these pillars that took -- or that hold up the roof. The other ones that were underneath, I don't think they had a lot of chance getting out.

So I expect that there will be far more than the 65, or the last I hear it was 66. It will be a lot more.

HARRIS: Well, Francis -- Francis, you have really -- you have really survived something here, and I wish you all the best in finding and locating the rest of your people. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us.

NOLMANS: Yes. Thank you.

HARRIS: OK, Francis.

NGUYEN: We wish him a speedy recovery. It's just a tragic situation.

Also going to be talking this morning about that Saddam trial and the outburst today. A lot of fireworks in the courtroom. We'll be taking you back to that trial, because it's still under way, and give you the developments so far. So stay tuned for that.

Here is a live picture of it. It's taking place right now.

Witnesses are giving their testimony, although Saddam Hussein and his defense team simply walked out today after a heated exchange. We'll give you much, much more on this coming up.

Plus, phone calls, forms, numbers, is it all part of the nightmare for Katrina evacuees. The latest on what you need to know this week is next.

HARRIS: And for those of you just joining us, we'll tell you why the Las Vegas strip was actually shut down while you were sleeping.

More news when CNN SUNDAY MORNING continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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