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CNN Sunday Morning
Update on Iran
Aired June 21, 2009 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NGUYEN: Hello, everybody. From the CNN Center, this is CNN SUNDAY MORNING. It is 8:00 a.m. here in Atlanta -- we've been on the air since 5:00 a.m. -- 4:30 p.m. in Tehran, Iran, where we are watching very closely.
Good morning, everybody. Thanks for joining us for this special coverage. I'm Betty Nguyen.
HOLMES: And hello to you all. I'm T.J. Holmes.
A special coverage of Iran and the fallout continues right now. It's a lot of wait-and-see. What's next, what's going to happen next, what's going to happen in the streets? What's going to happen, you know, behind the scenes with the clergy and those running the country?
But this is what we have been seeing, video -- amateur video that's been coming to us because of the crackdown on the foreign press. We know at least 19 people were killed in yesterday's clashes between protestors and armed security forces. That 19, that number comes to us from sources we have at hospitals there in Iran.
NGUYEN: And those sources that we've been talking about, those armed forces include a Basij, which is a feared pro-government militia. One witness told us the situation is very dangerous and that the Iranian government is still enforcing an international media blackout. Well, we know that, it's very evident, because we cannot even bring our own pictures or our own reports out of Iran.
So much of the information and video that we're going to be passing along to you is indeed coming from citizens -- citizen journalists inside Iran. Many of whom are taking great risk to not only take part in these protests, but send us those images and those pictures.
HOLMES: And we have our correspondents working on this story for us. Our Ivan Watson has been with us this weekend. He's over at our international desk, which is a hub where all of our Iran coverage is coming from, all the information is coming from. He's manning that for us.
Also, here in Atlanta, with us is Octavia Nasr, our senior editor for Mideast affairs. She is keeping an eye on all things online, also has plenty of sources there in Iran.
Also, our Kate Bolduan is monitoring the reaction from Washington, reaction that we got more of it from the president, some of his stronger words about the situation.
And also, this morning for us, a surprise visitor that we're glad to have with us. Samson Desta, this is a guy that you are familiar with -- the name, at least -- because we were talking to him plenty on the phone last weekend, was there in Iran with Christiane Amanpour, saw some of the first signs of those clashes happening in the streets, just literally walked in the door a little bit ago.
NGUYEN: And we grabbed him right away.
HOLMES: Put a microphone him. But he's here with us.
So, we're going to be talking to you plenty this morning. So, I just wanted to show that face that we'll be talking to you in just a second, I do believe. Is that right?
NGUYEN: Yes, just a second. So, stand by for a moment, Samson.
We do have some graphic video, though, that we have to bring to you right now. And some of it is just so bad that we do have to blur it out. And we want to give you a warning.
It shows a woman bleeding on the streets of Tehran. And no one is sure of her real name. She's been referred to on twitter just as Neda. So, take a look. Again, this is very graphic video posted online Saturday.
A blogger claimed the young woman was protesting with her father when the pro-government militia shot her in the heart. These pictures have been on Twitter and then people are just buzzing in the blogosphere about it this weekend. And there's so much interest that a discussion group is up and focused on Neda.
HOLMES: All right. Let's head over, like I mentioned a moment ago, Ivan Watson has been with us this weekend, over at our Iran desk, keeping an eye on things -- our international desk where the focus certainly is all about Iran this weekend.
Ivan, what do you have for us?
IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: T.J., I'd like to show you some footage from Iranian state TV. This is about clashes with security forces really getting beaten by a furious mob here. I mean, that's a uniformed man pulled off of his motorcycle. You see them thrashing him there. Just a sign of how furious some of the population in Tehran was.
That is probably a Basiji pro-government militia. Also being hit taken apart by that crowd there. Just give you a sense of how furious some of the crowd was and how polarized society is right now.
Now, last night, this video, I'm going to show you now. Let's take a listen to this chilling sound late at night in Tehran, Saturday night.
(VIDEO CLIP) WATSON: That is the sound of what appears to be a home invasion. Security forces attacking apartment buildings in Tehran. We've heard about that happening throughout the week, that at night, they go in. They break apart homes and cars and detain people.
And you hear people screaming, "They're coming on the balcony, they're coming in the terrace, go away, go away." Terrifying stuff there.
Despite these threats throughout the night, we got reports that protestors were screaming, "Allahu Akbar," "God is great" from the rooftops -- a show of defiance against the Iranian regime.
I got an e-mail from a protestors just about an hour ago, he said he was doing that and somebody fired back at him, but they kept yelling, "Allahu Akbar." Somebody was firing gun shots in retaliation and he said he's going to go on and hold protests, try to hold protests today, this afternoon, and then again on Monday, a mourning demonstration.
One final important piece of news, T.J. -- I'm going to play some video from Iranian state TV again, announcing that the relatives of one of the most powerful wealthy men in Iran have been arrested. It seems like a power play by the Islamic regime against one of their biggest rivals in this power struggle that is being waged so fiercely in Tehran.
Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, PRESS TV)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Security forces have arrested five members of a senior cleric Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani's family for their alleged involvement in the country's post-election violence. Faezeh Hashemi Rafsanjani, the eldest daughter of Iran's Expediency Council chief, is among those detained late Saturday. There are said to been arrested for allegedly taking part in the unauthorized protest rallies in central Tehran.
The detainees have been accused of provoking riots. Reports also say another one of the Faezeh's siblings has run away after being spotted in the Tehran's Saturday riots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATSON: And, T.J., this is very important, because Hashemi Rafsanjani, one of the most wealthy men in Iran, a former president, as well, a former pillar of the Islamic Revolution, and now appearing to be in a power struggle with the most powerful man in Iran, the supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. And now, the authorities are going after his family -- T.J.?
HOLMES: Yes. And that power struggle, Rafsanjani, a powerful politician who serves on several boards, the Expediency Council, also with the Assembly of Experts, who does have the power to remove the supreme leader and they also appoint him. So, yes, we appreciate you bringing us that deal, a lot developing there. Ivan Watson for us -- we'll be checking in with you again.
Meanwhile, let's turn to the president now. President Obama, he's calling on the government there in Iran to stop the violent crackdown on Iran.
Our Kate Bolduan at the White House to tell us about the president's comments -- comments which are some of the strongest to date about what's happening there, Kate.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Hi there, T.J.
Obviously, a carefully worded and carefully crafted statement coming from the White House late yesterday. The president in this statement repeating what we have heard him say on the record previously, that the Iranian government must understand that the world is watching here. But he goes further, speaking directly to Iranian leaders -- and as you mentioned -- some of the strongest, toughest words we've heard yet.
I'll read it in part. He says, "We call on the Iranian government to stop all violent and unjust actions against its own people." He goes on to say, "The universal rights to assembly and free speech must be respected; and the United States stand with all who seek to exercise those rights."
This statement comes after a day of the president receiving intelligence briefings throughout the day, as well as meeting with senior advisers on the situation, how things were developing on the ground in Iran -- this according to an administration official.
But the statement, T.J., as we've been talking goes right along with the cautious tone -- the cautious approach that the administration has been trying, has been taking. As the president has said, he does want the U.S. to become an issue in this -- in the internal affairs of Iran. He doesn't want the U.S. to become an issue of political debate that is going on. However, you do see here that the president's coming out to say that violent and unjust actions, they're just not acceptable there -- T.J.?
HOLMES: All right. And also, Kate, before we let you go, we've been talking about protests over in Iran. But also, we've seen plenty happening here in U.S., cities like L.A., Atlanta, also D.C., where you are, one that went right past the White House.
BOLDUAN: Yes. It was actually right over my right shoulder yesterday. We were out here getting ready for a live shot and we saw them approaching. It was quite an interesting march to see right here in the White House as the president is here at the White House this weekend. From what we could see, there was about several hundred to a thousand people. People chanting things like, "No more dictator," "Where is my vote," "Freedom for Iran," many in the crowd wearing green, which has become the signature or the trademark color of the Mousavi campaign. But very interesting to see this large showing of support here in Washington, outside the White House. Of course, this area outside the White House not -- it's not atypical to see a protest or a march out here, but it was interesting in light of the events going on.
HOLMES: All right. Kate Bolduan, keeping an eye for us on things there in Washington -- thank you so much, Kate.
BOLDUAN: My pleasure (ph).
NGUYEN: You know, we've been telling you a lot about the media blackout on foreign journalists. Essentially, we cannot report live out of Iran.
And we've got a journalist on the phone, in fact, a Canadian journalist who was detained, actually -- claims that he was beaten by security forces there in Iran. His name is George McLeod. He joins us by phone.
And, George, I just want to give our viewers a glimpse of what journalists in Iran face as they try to cover this story.
GEORGE MCLEOD, FREELANCE CORRESP., THE GLOBE & MAIL (via telephone): Well, it's an incredibly difficult and hostile environment to be working in here. The authorities have basically been told that the foreign media are responsible for the disturbances on the streets. And, on top of that, the interior ministry has said -- has made statements to the effect that we are fair game if we are seen near demonstrations.
So, it is a very, very difficult and very hostile environment to be working with as a reporter.
NGUYEN: Well, tell me what you personally experienced. You were detained and you were also beaten, I believe, correct?
MCLEOD: Yes, that's correct. And fortunately, the Canadian foreign minister issued a statement regarding my detention, which, I think, has given a bit of breathing space to us.
NGUYEN: But what happened to you? Explain what happened.
MCLEOD: Well, I was standing near a line of police, and I was grabbed and thrown on a motorbike. And taken eventually outside the interior ministry, where I was beaten by about five officers -- one of whom grabbed me by the neck and, you know, twisted my arm behind my back. And I was then taken to the interior ministry building and led into the underground car park. It was dark stairway and questioned in the basement.
And down there, I saw a large group of people who had been detained, mostly protestors who were squatting on the floor. So, it was quite a terrifying experience.
NGUYEN: And how are they treated down there? Were there beatings taking place down there, as well? MCLEOD: I didn't see any beatings, it was very quiet. But what I did see was people squatting down on their tippy toes in stressed positions with their hands behind their heads. So, it was -- it was not a good situation that these people were in.
NGUYEN: And, George, we're looking at video right now of the protestors on the streets, and we've been talking this morning about the Basij, and that is a militia group run by the government. And a lot of times, they are just in plain clothes. They blend in with the population, but they also a force to be reckoned with.
In fact, didn't you have a run-in with them, as well?
MCLEOD: I had a small run-in with them yesterday. I was at a demonstration at 7 o'clock. And it was about 7 o'clock. And they -- basically, the group was getting attacked by riot police and Basij, and I started to flee the scene. I jumped on a motorbike and two Basij came up behind me and hit me on the back of the head with -- one guy with his hand and then he pulled out a pistol and waved it at me.
So, I got away. It wasn't -- it wasn't as bad as it could have been, but I think it shows just how aggressive these militia groups can be.
NGUYEN: But it also shows courage, too -- because journalists have been told that they cannot report from the scene of these rallies, these demonstrations. And I know that you're coming to us, I believe, on the phone from Tehran, correct?
MCLEOD: That's correct.
NGUYEN: So, how are you able to go and get the story to be out and about? Obviously, you're facing a lot of possible danger.
MCLEOD: Well, it's very difficult to do a lot on the scene. I tried very hard to do as much as I possibly can. But my experience yesterday was -- you know, having a pistol waved at me. It doesn't inspire confidence. So, it's getting harder and harder.
NGUYEN: Well, your reporting is very important, as you know -- because here in the United States, we cannot see any live reports from our journalists in the country. We are relying on amateur video that we're putting up on the air right now and word of mouth from these social networking sites.
So, George McLeod, a Canadian journalist who was detained and beaten by Iranian forces, joins us by phone.
And, George, I want to thank you for your time. I want to thank you for sharing your story and I want to ask you to be safe as you continue to cover this.
MCLEOD: Great, thank you so much.
HOLMES: All right. I want to bring in now somebody we're happy see here back with us. Someone at -- the name at least, Samson, Desta, our Dubai bureau chief. A lot of you all be familiar with, we talked to him a lot last weekend. He was in Iran, was in Tehran covering the election, before the election and then up until the election day.
We just heard the experience that Canadian journalist went through. It was different when you were there, at least before the election. But still, what did you face? What were the challenges of trying to report in Iran?
SAMSON DESTA, JUST RETURNED FROM IRAN: Just a few days before I left, someone asked me if it was dangerous for foreign journalists to work in Iran. Initially, you know, I thought, no, it's not. We've been here for few days and we've been able to do everything that we want to do.
Other journalists have been out there. There are some 400 journalists covering this election. There's never been an incident.
So, it wasn't perhaps two or three days after the election that it really started to get a little violent, particularly because the Basijs were out in force. You know, they're plain-clothed. As you mentioned, they blend in and they're just quite determined to clear the streets of anyone and anybody. It doesn't matter if you're just a bystander.
But if you're a journalist, specifically, they don't want this to be covered. They'll confiscate the cameras and break the cameras. And if you're lucky, you might escape without injuries.
So, it was towards the end, just maybe perhaps two or three days before I left, that it really started getting ugly. And you weren't quite sure what was going to happen. I mean, you expected someone to just come into your office and to your hotel.
And it did happen to a number of journalists where they were detained in their offices for hours, questioned as to what they're covering, what -- why are they doing this. And warned, and warned sternly, do not go out there and cover these demonstrations (ph).
NGUYEN: We've been seeing some pictures, too, Samson, of what is being told to us as a home invasion.
DESTA: Right.
NGUYEN: And we're being told that it's by the hand of Basijis, members of the Basij militia. Did you see any of that?
DESTA: We did, actually. We did. It was about two days after the election, the voting, we were out covering demonstration and they came out probably about 40 or so, 40 or 50 of them on motorcycle, usually in pairs. One is riding the motorcycle, the other one is in the back with a, you know, with a metal pipe. And they're just -- they want to make sure the streets are clear.
And we were chased -- we were chased for a couple of hours and we had to take refuge in some private homes. And people were actually very kind to us. They were taking us in, shielding us, giving us refuge and saying, "Do not go out there, they're going to come after you."
And we saw one neighborhood where, you know, they surrounded this building -- probably about 20 to 25 of them. They're surrounding this building and we went to see what was happening.
Apparently, someone from this apartment had shouted at them. And they wanted to get this person. So, they're breaking the windows. They were climbing up the roof -- any way to get to this person. But we had to get out of there before we found out what happened to this person.
But we saw a number of them going door to door, banging on doors, asking people to come out. It was quite intimidating.
HOLMES: All right. Well, Samson, we are -- good to see you, glad to have you back.
NGUYEN: Absolutely.
HOLMES: We haven't seen you in a while. We heard your voice over there in Iran, of course. But, really, we appreciate you sharing the story. Hope to, maybe, get you back, but I know as soon as the shows sees that you're here, everybody is going to be asking for you. We didn't know you're going to be here. A pleasant surprise and glad we could get on today.
NGUYEN: Glad that you're safe.
DESTA: Thank you.
NGUYEN: Thank you, Samson.
HOLMES: Thanks so much, Samson.
NGUYEN: We have much more on our continuing coverage out of Iran. Stay right here with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: You know, the images are so graphic and horrible that the world is responding. And we're showing you one of those such images right now. This is a young woman known only as Neda. She's dying or, in fact, already dead there on the street in Tehran.
And we apologize for the graphic nature of this, but it's the situation as it is unfolding in Iran. Bloggers have been talking about this. This Neda has -- really, they've taken up a cause in her name.
And I want to talk a little bit more about that and how women are at the forefront of this movement.
Rudi Bakhtiar is with the Public Affairs Alliance of Iranian- Americans. And she joins us this morning from D.C. Rudi, you know, a lot of women -- and we talked about this a little bit earlier -- are indeed taking a stand. They are throwing rocks. And if men don't get out in the street and they don't fight for the right for freedom, they're calling them cowards.
Are you surprised at all at how bold these women have become and their push for freedom?
RUDI BAKHTIAR, PUBLIC AFFAIRS ALLIANCE OF IRANIAN-AMERICANS: I'm not surprised at all. Knowing Iranian women, knowing my own mother, my family and my girlfriends who are Iranians -- Iranian women are amazing and they are showing how courageous they are in this battle and losing their lives.
As you show the woman named Neda, there are many more like her. This is the sad part of this story.
NGUYEN: But why now, Rudi?
BAKHTIAR: Because this is the first time in the Islamic republic's 30-year history that we've actually heard somebody on the campaign trail -- and that was the wife of Mousavi -- talking about women's equal rights.
Women had their rights stripped from them. The day after the Islamic Revolution in '79, women in positions of power were removed from those positions -- whether they were lawyers or judges, Shirin Ebadi, Nobel laureate, was removed from her position. She was the first woman judge in Iran many, many years ago during the shah's era.
And they are energized by Zahra Rahnavard. She is Mousavi's wife. She's very educated.
Women in Iran actually take over 60 percent over the universities in Iran. They're all extremely educated, and they want equal rights for themselves. They want equal opportunities and they realize that they need to speak up for themselves now that they have somebody else who's been on the campaign trail -- for the first time, openly saying, women are equal to men. Something we take for granted so much here in America that over there it's not a given. Women do not have equal rights of men.
So, you see them now on the fight of their life and going out in the streets in numbers. And they're so courageous -- both the women, both the men -- because they are going out under extremely dangerous conditions. The Basijs are very well-known for being ruthless and brutal. This is the heavy hand of Ayatollah Khamenei, the brutality of him that is showing out on the streets. These are --
NGUYEN: But, Rudi, it seems like they're placing their hopes for reform in the hands of Mousavi. Is he a man who can truly give them what they are asking for?
BAKHTIAR: That remains to be seen. He hasn't been heard from in the past couple of days. Of course, we are hearing a lot of information on our Facebook pages, coming through uncorroborated sources.
He has said that he is ready for martyrdom. That was a huge statement coming out yesterday; I haven't heard it from his own lips. But people are saying that's what he's preparing for. And that will give the people of Iran the leader they need, the leadership they need if he is saying this to move forward.
You have to understand that the conditions in Iran -- not just for women, but for ordinary people -- are very difficult. You have 30 percent unemployment. You have double digit inflation.
There are no opportunities for these young kids. And they are growing up never having seen an Iran pre-revolution, never even experiencing the revolution. They're growing up and wanting things that the rest of the world has. These youths are growing up, wanting a better relationship with America and the rest of the world, and wanting the same economic opportunities that one of the richest countries in the Middle East should have.
NGUYEN: Well, you're seeing a lot of young people, a lot of young women on the forefront of this, because, what, some 2/3 of Iran's population, some 66 million people, 2/3 of them are people under the age of 30. So, it appears that they are going to stand strong in their will for reform.
Rudi Bakhtiar, thanks so much for your insight today. I know you're spending your birthday with us to talk this. So, thanks so much.
BAKHTIAR: It's a terrible day to celebrate a birthday.
NGUYEN: Yes.
BAKHTIAR: But just so you know, they are planning protests today. I've heard of two places in Tehran where they intend to show up today. That says a lot about the way this is playing out.
NGUYEN: It does. Thank you so much. We appreciate your time.
HOLMES: All right. More insights coming up after the break from our very own John King, who, of course, is coming up at 9 o'clock with his own show, "STATE OF THE UNION." We'll talk to him live -- coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: "STATE OF THE UNION" with John King comes up at the top of the hour. And John joins us now live with a preview.
No doubt, you're going to be talking a lot about Iran today.
JOHN KING, "STATE OF THE UNION" HOST: We sure are. Good morning, Betty and T.J.
We'll be continuing the conversation you guys been having -- find a look at what will happen as these protests drag on. We'll watch the streets of Iran today and we'll use the magic wall. I'll show you, we've just -- we've loaded some things up so we can go through this.
Number one, as you've been discussing all morning, it's not just what's going on in Iran. Iran has a critical place, the strategic place in the very troubled neighborhood of the Middle East. And we'll talk about that, we have the leading Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee with us. We also have some of the more powerful images loaded in the magic wall and we'll look through those as we watch the troubling violence in the street.
One of the things we'll spend a little bit of time on that many Americans might not understand and that is the organization of the Iranian government. Let me get that pretty straight here in the wall. And obviously, President Ahmadinejad claims he won the election, but you have him down here for a reason. One thing many Americans might forget, it is the supreme leader who calls the shots -- the armed forces, state media, all under control of the supreme leader.
And as you've been discussing all morning, it is the supreme leader who has called for an end to the protests. And so, when you see the people in the streets, understanding the political stakes and the political structure of this country, that's makes what we're seeing so extraordinary.
HOLMES: All right. And you've got about half an hour to play with the wall a little bit before your show starts to make sure everything stays straight there, John.
KING: Need two hands. Yes, I'm holding my notes. If you use two hands, everything stays straight. Piece of cake.
(LAUGHTER)
HOLMES: All right. Well, also, there's been some debate in Washington. You know, politics always played and sometimes the other side always trying to score some political points. But still, some debate about how much President Obama should say, how much he has said, how much more he should say. He came out with a little bit of a stronger statement this weekend.
NGUYEN: Yes.
KING: He did get a little stronger as we saw more violence in the streets. He said that he wanted the Iranian government to know the entire world was watching, and that he wanted them not to have unjust actions against their own people. That was the strong statement yet from the president.
And there are some who say he should go further. They understand the risks, and the president has said the reason he won't go further is that it will be used internally.
Ahmadinejad, the Supreme Leader will say, hey, look the United States is trying to meddle in our affairs. And in fact, they've already said that. Everyone understands that.
What some of the critics are saying is that, he has to almost ignore those risks because this is the United States. And they say he should be a bit more aggressive and say, "The people on the streets should know that I as president and the people of the United States stand with you." Things like that.
But the White House believes that would be A, too provocative and B, again give a propaganda foil to the forces inside Iran.
And that's one of the things we'll be discussing, with Richard Lugar, Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee. We have the chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee here. We want to know what U.S. Intelligence services are picking up inside in Iran and a couple of other senators, too.
So this is just is a very interesting debate, it's a very important debate. You're right, T.J., sometimes it gets partisan but it's a pretty important moment for the president of the United States as well as the people of Iran right now.
NGUYEN: All right John King, we thank you for that. I know a lot more is coming up on your show at the top of the hour "STATE OF THE UNION" with John King. You don't want to missed it, coming up at 9:00 a.m. Eastern.
Thanks John.
HOLMES: Thanks John.
Well, America is sending their own message to Iran with protests and demonstrations.
NGUYEN: We want to show you the anger and the pleas when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: Well, good morning everybody and welcome back to our continuing coverage -- our special coverage of the fallout of the Iran election.
Good morning I'm Betty Nguyen.
HOLMES: And hello to you all I'm T.J. Holmes, this all started yesterday. We knew there were supposed to be two major protests and major rallies and demonstrations yesterday. And we did finally start getting pictures and amateur video. Again, there's a crackdown on foreign media there, so we aren't allowed to go in there and shoot our own pictures.
But this is just one example of some of the video we've seen, some of the amateur video posted on social networking sites, on YouTube, as well, of the marches and demonstrations taking place in the street. This is in direct defiance of the Ayatollah, the Supreme Leader, Khamenei, who we heard come out on Friday in a sermon, telling people flat-out to stop what they were doing in the streets and that there will be repercussions for you doing so. So we saw about 19 people who were killed according to hospital sources that have checked-in with us that have been killed in the streets, but again, a major crackdown still happening.
NGUYEN: And I want to just make a note here, that this amateur video that you're looking at, this large crowd of protestors, this is from today in Iran. And so you're seeing day after day now, despite the Ayatollah's warning to protestors that they have defied that warning and they are out in the streets once again today in Iran. We're continuing to follow that for you.
Iran's Foreign Minister, though, says election fraud is virtually nonexistent but thousands of protestors obviously disagree. Their voices are being heard today. And the world obviously is talking about that, as well. And so are we.
Political cartoonist and journalist-blogger, Nikahang Kowsar, joins us from Toronto this morning. And -- Nica, there you go. And I understand that two of your colleagues were arrested yesterday in Tehran. Is that correct, tell us about that.
NIKAHANG KOWSAR, POLITICAL CARTOONIST AND JOURNALIST-BLOGGER: Yes, hi, first of all. A lot of my colleagues have been arrested in Tehran in the past few days. They've been my sources; they've been my friends for years. And they were arrested after the security forces attacked their house -- the husband and wife.
So -- and this is going to happen for the next few days. Any reliable source would be under threat by the judiciary and the security forces, because they are the ones that -- in lack of any foreign reporters in Iran -- they would be the sources for so many people out of the country.
NGUYEN: So what's going to happen now? What do you think is going to occur in light of this unrest and in light of the media blackout on all foreign journalists? What's going to happen with your colleagues? And you also were detained, as well, at one point, correct?
KOWSAR: Yes, I was arrested for drawing a cartoon that's somehow related to one of the sponsors -- the supporters of Mr. Ahmadinejad, of course, ten years ago when Mr. Ahmadinejad was actually Mr. Nobody.
But what's going to happen is that we are relying on bloggers right now and so many of them are sending us information. I'm getting about 300 e-mails a day and a lot of comments on my blog but I don't publish them of course. And getting information that I have to actually evaluate them and contact other people to see how reliable they are.
So after getting the credibility, then we're able to publish them.
NGUYEN: Which makes them very difficult for us as journalists, because we're relying on like we're watching right now, amateur video to show the scenes of what's occurring on the streets of Iran. And you as a cartoonist, though, not only do you have to decipher the information, but you're trying to put it in a way that it not only sends a message but it is funny at the same time.
It's got to be quite a challenge for you, especially with limited information coming out of the country.
KOWSAR: It's very difficult, especially since yesterday that I saw the video of this young Iranian woman, Neda, was killed. I haven't been able to even sketch and draw something for today. So...
NGUYEN: I mean, how do you do that? I mean, you know -- really, how can you sketch and create a cartoon considering we're watching video or have been of a woman who was shot dead in the streets according to, you know, what's out in the blogosphere and the information that we're getting?
KOWSAR: At the end of the day I'm a cartoonist and I have been doing this for 19 years. So I can manage, but it's really hard and you would lose your objectivity at a point.
Of course, cartoonists are a little bit opinionated in a way. But I don't want to take sides. But one thing is that a cartoonist has to monitor the power and serve the people.
So this is what I have to do. But making it look funny is really difficult.
NGUYEN: No doubt. And as for your colleagues, any idea if you're going to hear more word or when you will -- what's happening with the status of their situation?
KOWSAR: As far as I know, so many of them have been arrested and a lot of my other colleagues are in -- are waiting to be arrested. That's the sad part. But just we have to pray for them.
NGUYEN: You say waiting to be arrested because they're just doing their job and they assume that in doing so that's what's going to happen?
KOWSAR: Actually, I believe that the judiciary and the security forces are trying to find anybody who could be a reliable source for the foreign media in a way or even for us who are working outside of Iran, reporting about what's happening inside.
And somehow, because we have connections to foreign media here like any outlets in the States or Canada. So they are trying to cut this connection off. But the bloggers and so many citizen journalists are the ones who are helping us by sending us pictures and videos. And it's incredible.
NGUYEN: Yes. Trust me. That is what we've been relying on for the past couple of days here, as well.
Nikahang Kowsar joining us from Toronto this morning; thanks so much for sharing not only your story, but bringing us up-to-date on what has happened to your colleagues in Iran. Thank you, we appreciate it.
KOWSAR: Thanks for having me.
NGUYEN: Best of luck to them, as well.
HOLMES: And coming up next, how faith is fuelling the Iranian protest and the government's crackdown. Stay here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: And were joined again by our senior editor for Middle East Affairs, Octavia Nasr, you've been covering so many topics, so many subjects here. But one we haven't been talking a lot about, religion.
Where is religion, as you see it so far playing into this whole debate, these protests and in the future now for this country?
OCTAVIA NASR, SENIOR EDITOR, MIDEAST AFFAIRS: One thing very important know about Iran is it is called the Islamic Republic of Iran. It is an Islamic republic. It is Muslim.
The country is made up of many religions and many ethnic backgrounds. The largest religion is Islam, and within Islam, the largest group is Shiite Muslim. Then you have the Sunnis, then there are other religions in Iran.
For example, Zoroastrian religion is one of the oldest in the world and the original religion of Iran and Persia. Then you have Christian, you have Jews in Iran. You also have the faith that people know as the Baha'i faith, the Baha'i religion. It was born in Iran and spread from there.
And then outside of religion, you have the ethnic background. People came from all over the world and settled in Persia and they remain. And throughout history, they live together and prosper.
So when you think about religion in Iran, it is Islam; that's the main religion of the country. But within the country you have all the other religions that live and prosper. And when you ask Iranians what comes first, the majority of Iranians will say that their nationality being Iranian comes first and then religion except for the extreme who put religion first and these are the fanatics or extreme in their views.
So when you talk about the elections, really, who voted for Mr. Mousavi, and who voted for Mr. Ahmadinejad, it wasn't based on religion. Both of them are Shiite Muslims because in Iran according to the constitution the president has to be Shiite Muslim. There's no other way around it.
So people voted for each candidate based on their political beliefs and based on who they believe will get them the freedom or the prosperity that they're seeking.
HOLMES: You talked there about the nationality comes first. But while the population may not be as devout as many on the outside may think and believe, we still see a country that's being run by clerics.
NASR: Right. And the Supreme Leader in Iran, runs not just the religious side of things, but also the political side of things. He's in charge of basically everything and that is Ayatollah Khamenei.
And when -- we talk about it this way. So when you say, for example, the leader in Iran, there's no question about who you're talking about. You're not talking about the president, you're not talking about any minister or any other cleric but Khamenei.
With that in mind, it's important to understand Iran in this respect. And that's why it is called, again, the Islamic Republic of Iran. There's no question about the religion of the country, of the nation but important to understand also that there are other minorities.
For example, you know, you have Azeris. Mr. Mousavi, he is an Azeri. And basically all these cultures and ethnic backgrounds they live together. They share the Persian language, but they also have their own dialect. They also have their own cultures. You take the Kurds for example in Iraq. Just like you have Kurds in Iraq, you have Kurds in Syria, you have the Kurds in Iran.
They keep their culture, keep their tradition. But what keeps them altogether is their Iranian identity. So at the end of the day, they are Iranian and they vote based on that not based on ethnicity. But if you are of a certain ethnic background, like if you are Azeri you are likely to vote for Mousavi.
This is when Mousavi came out and said the votes were rigged and called for annulling the elections it's because in his own neighborhood the people that would vote for him without any doubt, according to the results, these results showed that these people voted for President Ahmadinejad. And this is what made people raise their eyebrows and cried fowl.
HOLMES: Our senior editor of Middle East Affairs, Octavia Nasr. We have been so thankful we've had you with us this weekend. Thank you so much for everything.
And again, explaining some of the complexities of what's happening there. Thank you so much.
NASR: Any time.
NGUYEN: Good information.
And we have more coverage right here on CNN SUNDAY MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: All right. It continues in Iran, folks. This is new. We are just getting into us. We talked about the protests yesterday. Here we are a day after some of the clashes we saw yesterday and it continues today. We are a full week after the elections there, and here we are on Sunday now. This is video, we are told from today. This happening in Tehran, and again, it's about -- what is this -- 5:00 in the afternoon or so now in Tehran. But another demonstration, another massive march...
NGUYEN: Look at the numbers there.
HOLMES: This one looks huge. Some of the other video, Betty, we've been seeing doesn't show this wide of an angle, wide of a shot. This is a wider shot. You can see that street's packed.
NGUYEN: All the way down the street. And if we can just stop for a second and listen to them because they are chanting, they are out in protests, and they want their voices heard. Let's just take a little listen.
(Protesters shouting in the streets of Tehran.)
NGUYEN: So another example of how those on the street, those wanting reform are going up against the Ayatollah, Iran's Supreme Leader who drew a line in the sand on Friday saying do not go out in the street and protest because if you do, you will face the consequences.
We have seen video of the consequences, but it is not holding them back. Again, new video into CNN of today, people, again, by the hundreds possibly the thousands back on the streets in Iran.
HOLMES: And let's go ahead and bring in Fariborz Ghadar, he served as vice minister under the Shah, now a senior adviser at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.
Sir, we're going to talk to you and keep showing our audience some of that new video we're just getting, again, of a protest of a demonstration today. We thought we would just see the big ones yesterday and maybe it would be to a halt today.
But obviously not the case, so what do you think sir? We see this day after day after day and apparently another one today. What do you think? This thing is not going to stop is it?
PROF. FARIBORZ GHADAR, PENN. STATE UNIVERSITY: T.J. you're absolutely right. I mean, what we see is this is no longer an issue of whether the elections was counted properly or not. I think this is now a fundamental issue of whether the Islamic Republic of Iran is going to be more Islamic or whether it's going to be more of a Republic.
During the past 10 to 20 years, Ayatollah Khamenei has basically made it more Islamic. And particularly in the past four years under Ahmadinejad it's become even more aggressively Islamic. And now people are basically stepping up and saying, look, we want this to be more of a republic than an Islamic republic.
And that is the issue that's caused so much conflict among the clergy. And the clergy are basically even among themselves at the most senior level are debating what they should do. HOLMES: Well, you mentioned there about Ahmadinejad who essentially made the government may be a little more hard-lined. But what would Mousavi give these people who are out in the streets? I phrased it a little earlier, is it between hard line and hard line light?
GHADAR: That's the interesting thing. But the people on the street are now becoming much more vocal about it. They don't want, you know, Islamic hard-liner or Islamic less hard line, they would want to see more of a republic. And that's the issue that the senior clerks are now probably -- clerics among themselves are debating.
And I think Mousavi's vision is -- actually going to have to shift if he wants to respond to the demands in the street. If the Supreme Leader decides to clamp down as he says he wants to do, then he can only clamp down by bringing the thugs in the street, the revolutionary guards and the Basij, and the question then becomes, that becomes the question that senior clerics are asking. Is this going to turn into a dictatorship of thugs? And this is a major risk.
HOLMES: Well, we will see how this one plays out. That's an interesting way to phrase that; a dictatorship of thugs. We certainly hope it doesn't turn into that.
Fariborz Ghadar, sir, we've been talking to you yesterday. Good to have you on, wish we had more time with you. But again, good to have you on, thank you so much for your time.
GHADAR: Nice to be with you, T.J.
HOLMES: And again, for the audience, what you're seeing there is video we are seeing today, brand new just in to us; another protest -- another day of protests and demonstrations in the streets of Iran.
We're back right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: All right, folks. Many times we don't get to bring video out of Iran and we don't have our own reporters on the ground. But, boy, you cannot mistake this video. This is recent video of today in Iran and look at the crowd on the street. This is in Tehran.
In fact, just look down that street. It goes on and on. We're not talking just a few people out today protesting, we are talking hundreds, possibly thousands. And they're not doing it silently either. Let's take a listen.
(Protestors marching in Tehran.)
NGUYEN: They are spirited, they are driven, and they are not backing down, apparently from this amateur video coming into CNN. Again, new video showing protestors defying Iran's Supreme Leader's warnings not to demonstrate. They faced a lot of police force yesterday. We've gotten video of violence, we've gotten video of people being injured, possibly even those being killed. One hospital reports 19 dead. But again, that is not stopping them.
HOLMES: We're told now, what there is don't be afraid, we are all together.
Our coverage now will continue with "STATE OF THE UNION" with John King right now.
