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Smerconish

Why Are Biden And Trump Virtually Tied In Polls?; If Health Officials Again Require Masks, Will America Comply?; Tubman Statue Sparks Debate Over Art and Race. Aired 9-10a ET

Aired September 02, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:00:24]

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN ANCHOR: Democratic deadlines draw near. I'm Michael Smerconish in Philadelphia.

You know, I recently gamed out here, the looming conflict between Donald Trump's trial schedules and the election calendar. There's virtually no time in the next 15 months that he will not be needed both in court defending against four indictments and on the campaign trail competing for the Republican nomination. It remains to be seen whether Trump can continue to withstand and even benefit from his legal perils.

But a different type of scheduling trouble looms on the Democratic timeline. Consider this despite a record about which Democrats are proud, Joe Biden remains deeply unpopular. His latest Gallup approval stands at just 42 percent and even many Democrats don't want him to run for reelection.

A recent AP NORC poll found that 75 percent of Americans don't want them to run again. That's higher than Trump, of whom 69 percent said the same thing. At the end of July, a CNN poll found that 75 percent of Democratic and Democratic leaning voters want the party to nominate someone other than Biden. Why? Largely its age.

The AP NORC poll found that 77 percent of adults think Biden is too old to run. When asked what words come to mind when you think of Joe Biden 26 percent said old, outdated, aging, or elderly. Another 15 percent said slow, confused or bumbling. Mitch McConnell didn't help the cause of octogenarian politicians this week, when the 81 year old Senate minority leader had his second apparent freeze in a month while speaking with reporters. That and Dianne Feinstein will have some subliminal impact when people look at Biden.

If Biden stays in the race, he'll need to convince the country that despite the concerns that people have about him now at age 80, he's still the best choice for the nation when he's finishing a second term at age 86. If the opponent is Donald Trump, that might work. But what if next spring the weight of Trump's prosecutions finally caused a Republican reshuffling? He'd be replaced but Democrats will still have Biden as their standard bearer against the wishes of three quarters of their own voters. The collapse of the Hunter Biden plea agreement is another consideration. Hunter may ultimately be indicted for multiple felonies related to guns, China, Ukraine, taxes, where he was engaged in business dealings while traveling with his father at the time he was vice president. This inquiry is no longer separable from the President, that's distracting and damaging as well.

Nevertheless, the President has announced his reelection, he's raising money and he's opened a campaign headquarters in Wilmington. Still, the questions persist as to whether he's really in it. Even among Democrats, almost all are spoken off the record.

As CNN's Edward-Isaac Dover recently reported, "The conversations keep happening, quiet whispers on the sidelines of events, texts, e-mails, furtive phone calls, as top Democrats and donors reach out to those seen as possible replacement presidential candidates. Get ready, they urge, in conversations that aides to several of the people involved have described to CNN: Despite what he has said despite the campaign that he's announced, President Joe Biden won't actually be running for reelection. They feel like time is already running out and that the lack of a more robust campaign activity that they want to see is a sign that his heart really isn't in it."

Part of the problem is that his vice president is not a ready-made solution. Kamala Harris' standing is worse than Biden's. Her approval isn't about 40 percent. She was tasked with responsibility for voting rights and dealing with the origin of border security issues but has little to show for either. And many Democratic poll have not forgotten that she left the 2020 nomination race before a single vote was cast, having distinguished herself only with an attempted takedown of Biden over busing.

Biden's rationale in 2020 was that he was needed to defeat Trump. That rationale is weak now. People want somebody else. Biden is not polling ahead of Trump.

In a poll published in The Wall Street Journal today, Trump is at 40, Biden's at 39. It confirms what several other major polls have found that they're neck and neck within the margin of error. He's gone from being the one Democrat able to beat Trump to being the one Democrat who might not be able to beat Trump. But if Biden is to stand down, how does he do it and when?

Remember, in 2016, Biden gave thought to running but having just lost his son Beau, took a pass. President Obama I didn't endorse Hillary Clinton in that cycle until June two days after she clinched the nomination. When Biden did run in 2020, Obama at first sat it out, conferring with and offering advice to all the candidates, but not endorsing his vice president of eight years.

[09:05:17]

And remember, Biden went on then to play fourth in Iowa, fifth in New Hampshire, second to Bernie Sanders in Nevada. He saved his candidacy in late February with a win in South Carolina, largely due to the support of House Whip James Clyburn. Obama didn't formally endorse his former VP until April, a week after Bernie Sanders had dropped out of the race and after Sanders had endorsed Biden. Biden is said to bristle about that late embrace, which might make him more inclined to be supportive, sooner of his own vice president.

Then again, for Democrats, a large part of Joe Biden's legacy is that he defeated Donald Trump that he prevented eight straight years of Trump. If he decides not to run, he'll want to leave his party in the hands of whoever has the best chance to beat Trump should Trump be the 2024 GOP nominee. But is that Harris? And should she have to prove it?

Gavin Newsom seems to be doing what's necessary to keep his prospects alive going so far as to agree to debate Ron DeSantis, we'll see if that really comes to pass. Surely, he'd not be the only other Democrat besides RFK Jr. and Marianne Williamson who compete for the nomination. The longer Joe Biden is an announced candidate, the better it is for Kamala Harris that any change of heart comes late.

That way, the potential field is frozen, and she's better placed to be a quick stand in. If Biden wants to foster competition, he'll have to remain neutral with Harris and 2024 as Obama was with him in 2020. And he'll need to stand down with enough time for others to raise money and get on primary and caucus ballots.

That clock is ticking. Amazingly, the first state filing deadline for primary candidates is October 16, just six weeks away, and it's Nevada, a key state that Biden won by fewer than 34,000 votes, a couple of percentage points, and Hillary Clinton won in 2016 by only 27,000. Another swing state Michigan has a December 8 deadline. As of today, many states have yet to finalize their filing deadlines, including the three early states of South Carolina, Iowa and New Hampshire. But by year's end, at least 13 more will have locked in their candidate slates including 10, with primaries on Super Tuesday, which is March the fifth.

So, unless RFK Jr. suddenly surges, that doesn't leave a lot of room for a new candidate to launch a campaign, assemble a team and make a real run for it. What the calendar makes clear is that time is running out for a Biden alternative other than Kamala Harris. So, as Donald Trump tries to figure out how he can be in two places, a courtroom and the campaign trail, President Biden needs to make sure he's in this come hell or high water.

I want to know what you think. Go to my website at smerconish.com and vote on today's poll question, will Joe Biden be the Democratic nominee in 2024?

Joining me now to discuss this Ron Brownstein, CNN Senior Political Analyst and Senior Editor of The Atlantic where he has just published this piece, "Why Biden just can't shake Trump in the Polls."

Ron, always great to see you. I read the new piece, you argue that there are two things hindering Biden that don't enable him to distance from Trump. What are those two things?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. Good morning, Michael, and interesting analysis there. Look, I think there are four, four factors that are shaping the environment for '24 that have changed the world since Trump and Biden face each other the first time in 2020. The two big factors that are hurting Biden, the headwinds for him are, as you said, the concerns about his age, three quarters of Americans saying he's too old to do the job for a second term and concerns about inflation. You know, I talked to Stanley Greenberg, a longtime Democratic pollster since the '80s, his poll for parties all over the world, and he points out that the destabilizing effect of inflation lasts longer in the minds and in the finances of average voters and political leaders often recognize.

And then, though, there are two big factors on the other side that are weakening Trump, and one of those is abortion, the desire to the majority support for maintaining legal abortion. And the second really is insurrection and democracy, the belief that he -- the majority believe in the public that his actions after 2020 were illegal and unconstitutional. And when you take age and inflation on one side, and abortion and insurrection on the other side, what you see right now is that sums the stalemate.

SMERCONISH: With regard to Biden, here's what you wrote in part, you said, "The other big change weakening Democrats is that Biden is older now in polls as many as three quarters of Americans have said they believe Biden is too old to serve effectively as president. Far fewer Americans expressed that concern about Trump, though he's only three years younger than Biden. Images of Biden --

[09:10:17]

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

SMERCONISH: -- walking stiffly or clips of him intermittently mingling his sentence -- mangling his sentences, which he's prone to do even when younger leave many Democratic strategist in a perpetual state of anxiety, fearful that the President is one slip physical or verbal away from political disaster." Are you convinced, Ron Brownstein, that he will be the Democratic nominee?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, I think -- well, we don't know -- we don't know what's going on in his mind. But I think the vast, vast majority of Democrats believe that Biden is going to be the nominee, and they have to figure out a way to make this work with him on the top of the ticket.

You know, first of all, Biden has been a more effective legislative president than almost anyone expected. I think that's a fair statement. And he looks at those accomplishments and says, you know, I still have my fastball. Second, I think the people -- him and the people around him are much more worried than you suggested that a fight to succeed him with tear apart the Democratic Party, precisely as it needs to go up against what I think virtually all Democrats and many non-Democrats view as an existential threat to American democracy, and Trump. And then third, you know, people don't -- it gets a seat -- you know, hand over power as president very often.

Who was the last president not run for reelection? I think it would be Calvin Coolidge, right? There not seek at least one reelection. So, you know, there are lots of reasons why he should consider stepping off the stage. But there are also some powerful ones for why he would stay in.

And I think most Democrats believe that it's going to be the latter course. And they've got to figure out a way to make this work. And by the way, if you look at the 2022 results, despite all of the problems that Biden faces, they were all present there in 2022 as well. And in the states that will likely decide the winner next year, Arizona and Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, among them, abortion and democracy did outweigh inflation and concerns about Biden in those key governor's races.

SMERCONISH: Ron, I fully recognize that many watching today are not going to appreciate my analysis, they're not going to appreciate --

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

SMERCONISH: -- the commentary, my effort to try and game out what might happen. For the record, I've spent the last several weeks talking about Trump and all of his legal impediments. But what if Donald Trump's nomination collapses under the weight of the indictments, right? Next spring, the argument then that like Joe Biden's the one who did and can beat Trump goes away. And if there's another Republican nominee, Democrats could find themselves locked in with the President of the United States?

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, look, there's a lot of concern about Biden running against a different Republican, especially one who is younger. I think Democrats six months ago thought DeSantis was clearly a tougher candidate to beat than Trump. I think many of them are not so sure right now that DeSantis is actually tougher than Trump. But look, Biden's vulnerabilities are real. I mean, you know, there is clearly a majority of the country that is very -- everything he's managed to achieve in his first term, you know, especially with a big trio of economically related bills, that is real.

I think Democrats are frustrated and a little unnerved by how sustained that resistance has proven in polls, despite all of the leaks -- going for Trump. And, you know, if you kind of consider the overall landscape against anyone other than Trump, it could be difficult. But Trump's short looks like a commanding favorite right now in the Republican race.

SMERCONISH: Quick final comment relative to the Republican race. We show that Wall Street Journal poll that shows Trump still maintaining his grasp on the GOP, is that a reflection of an adherence to him or a reflection on that field that we all saw on the debate stage two weeks ago?

BROWNSTEIN: I think it's more the former than the latter. I mean, I think what Trump has done is successfully convinced that it wasn't really hard, the majority of the Republican electorate to view the indictments the way he wants them to see them as an attack on them through him. Look, his message from the beginning has been that I am in effect the human wall that will protect you against all the forces in society that he alleges and many Republicans believe are trying to marginalize them. And he has basically made this just the latest manifestation of that. So, supporting him in the primary becomes a way to stand up to the liberal establishment and the deep state and all of these other forces. But it is worth noting when you get --

SMERCONISH: Yes. I think you're right.

BROWNSTEIN: -- five (INAUDIBLE) the Republican coalition, there are a majority of voters who say they do not want Donald Trump to be president again if he is convicted of a crime. So you got two candidates who are defined more by their weaknesses than their strengths heading into this potential rematch.

[09:15:11]

SMERCONISH: Ron, your piece today in the Atlantic, as usual is terrific. Thank you for being here.

BROWNSTEIN: Thanks for having me.

SMERCONISH: Social media reaction, Catherine (ph), what do we have? I'm sure people were just elated with my opening commentary, right? Shut up. Why are you spreading fear of Biden and Harris? Biden is in the 2024 race.

Janice, I fully expect that the result of today's poll question will be that people say, yes, Joe Biden will be the Democratic nominee in 2024. You know what my eye is on? What's the percentage of those who believe that he won't? I don't know what it'll be. I don't look until the end.

And the second response that I have is to say, everything I offered in the opening commentary today was fact based. There was no hyperbole in there whatsoever. Very little opinion. It was me looking at polling data, and looking at the nomination schedule, and saying, you know what, maybe this is going to change.

I do want to know what you think. Go to my website at smerconish.com and answer this week's poll question, will Joe Biden be the Democratic nominee in 2024?

Up ahead, this statue of abolitionist heroine Harriet Tubman has toured 19 states too much a claim. Would your response to it be at all affected by the fact that the sculptor who made it was white that has caused a fracas here in Philadelphia? And I will explain. And there's a new COVID variant and a new rise in cases if it got to the point where health officials asked us to wear masks again, would people listen? Who better to ask than Dr. Anthony Fauci who used to work for this guy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When I'm back in the White House, I will use every available authority to cut federal funding to any school, college, airline or public transportation system that imposes a mask mandate or a vaccine mandate. (END VIDEO CLIP)

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[09:20:45]

SMERCONISH: There's an uptick in COVID cases and a new variant called BA.2.86. Some three and a half years since the pandemic was first identified. But if public health officials feel it necessary to ask America to mask up again, how many would comply. The Drudge Report led its website this morning with the headline, "Not Again Mask Up in New York." Lead story at CBS News this morning, "COVID hospitalizations on the rise as U.S. enters Labor Day weekend."

The past several weeks I've seen reports from all over the country of a rise in cases and yes, the CDC reports COVID-19 hospital admissions are up more than 19 percent in the most recent week, and a few school districts this is even led to canceled classes and sporting events. A handful of companies and schools have responded to outbreaks on their premises by reinstating mask mandates among them several hospital systems including Kaiser Permanente in Northern California, Morris Brown College in Atlanta, Dillard University in Louisiana, Lionsgate film studio in Santa Monica. But so far, so far, those have been the few exceptions. And this graph shows how the current rise in hospitalizations compares to past searches less than half the numbers this time last year and still lower than they've been for about 80 percent of the pandemic.

But if things get worse, it may be hard to get people to revert to an abundance of caution. According to Gallup in the first two years public confidence in the U.S. healthcare system has dropped from 44 percent to 34 percent. And Donald Trump took to Truth Social to again make the issue political, accusing the latest outbreak to be hype designed to impact the 2024 election.

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TRUMP: But to every COVID tyrant who wants to take away our freedom, hear these words, we will not comply. So don't even think about it. We will not shut down our schools, we will not accept your lockdowns, we will not abide by your mask mandates, and we will not tolerate your vaccine mandates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: Joining me now to discuss is Dr. Anthony Fauci. He, of course, is the former director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.

Dr. Fauci, nice to have you back. How worried are you that people will not follow advice to wear masks, if, big if, if we get to that?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, FORMER CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO THE PRESIDENT: Well, Michael, that's a very good question, as you said, if we get to that. I mean, we're starting to see a surge of cases, as you mentioned, about an 18 percent or 19 percent increase in hospitalizations certainly going in the wrong direction with looks like a late summer and into the fall surge. How bad it's going to get? We don't know. As you know, this is a very unpredictable virus has shown us that over the last three and a half years.

I am concerned that people will not abide by recommendations. And we're not talking about mandates or forcing anybody but when you have a situation where the volume of cases in society gets to a reasonably high level, particularly the vulnerable, those who are elderly, and those with underlying conditions are going to be more susceptible and vulnerable if they do get infected to get severe disease leading to hospitalization. We know that. That's a fact. We've seen that.

So I would hope that if in fact we get to the point where the volume of cases is such an organization's like the CDC recommend, CDC doesn't mandate anything, I mean, recommends that people wear masks, I would hope that they abide by the recommendation and take into account the risk to themselves and to their families. And again, we're not talking there's forcing anybody to do anything.

SMERCONISH: Totally understood. There is a perception out there by many, how many, I don't know, that they don't work and that the data concludes that they didn't work in the first go round. Respond to that on masks.

FAUCI: Yes, well, that's not so. I mean, when you're talking about at the population level, that the data are less strong than knowing that if you look on a situation as an individual protecting themselves or protecting them from spreading it there is no doubt that masks work. Different studies give different percentages of advantage of wearing it. But there's no doubt that the weight of the studies, and there have been many studies indicate the benefit of wearing masks.

[09:25:18]

SMERCONISH: I'm going to refer to one of them. You've heard about it before, I heard about it from a number of radio callers. Bret Stephens in the "Times" talked about Cochrane. Put that on the screen. "The most rigorous and comprehensive analysis of scientific studies conducted on the efficacy of masks for reducing the spread of respiratory illness, including COVID-19, was published last month, its conclusions, said Tom Jefferson, the Oxford epidemiologist who is the lead author, were unambiguous.

"There is just no evidence that they masks make any difference," he told the journalist Maryanne Demasi. "Full stop." But wait, hold on, what about the N-95 masks, as opposed to the lower quality surgical or cloth masks? Makes no difference? None of it, he said. Well, what about the studies that initially persuaded policymakers to impose mask mandates?

"They were convinced by nonrandomized studies, flawed observational studies." How do we get beyond that finding of that particular review?

FAUCI: Yes, but there are other studies, Michael, that show at an individual level for individual when you're talking about the effect on the epidemic or the pandemic as a whole, the data are less strong. But when you talk about as an individual basis of someone protecting themselves or protecting themselves from spreading it to others, there's no doubt that there are many studies that show that there is an advantage.

When you took it the broad population level like the Cochrane study, the data are less firm with regard to the effect on the overall pandemic. But we're not talking about that, we're talking about an individual's effect on their own safety. That's a bit different than the broad population level.

SMERCONISH: Dr. Fauci, look back and reflect and tell me, how would you do it differently with regard to kids? I am of the opinion that we err on the side, this is probably in artfully said of physical health, not emotional health, and that putting our kids within parameters in the pandemic was not in their best interest. Do you share that perception? And if not, why?

FAUCI: So, Michael, are you referring to the closing of schools and the negative impact --

SMERCONISH: Yes.

FAUCI: -- that has on development --

SMERCONISH: Yes.

FAUCI: -- and mental health? Yes.

SMERCONISH: I am.

FAUCI: Well, certainly, when you --

SMERCONISH: Yes.

FAUCI: Yes. When we were dealing, Michael, with the tsunami that we saw earlier on in the pandemic, when things had to be shut down because we were having hospitals that were overcrowded and we were having freezer trucks in front of hospitals in New York and other cities because we had no place to put the bodies, that was a very, very dramatic situation that needed something immediately to stop it.

The question is, how long should a shutdown have been? And I think that there's varying degrees of differences in that. And I agree that I, if you look back at the things that I've said back then, we should try as best as possible to keep the schools open and the schools that are closed to get them open safely, by any have a number of means, including increasing the ventilation in schools, making sure that the people around the children are properly vaccinated.

So I agree. I mean, there was a point where we had a shutdown, but the duration of the shutdown is something that is questionable. And I think people rather appropriately should be examining of whether or not things should have been shut down for so long. But the initial shutting down was something that really had to have been done, Michael, because we were in desperate situations then. SMERCONISH: Given the public sentiment that I shared at the outset, people saying, there's no way I'd mask up again. A final thought from Dr. Fauci. If it comes to it, we hope it doesn't, but if it comes to it, might a better approach say let's protect the most vulnerable and allow others to lead their normal lives. Final word is yours.

FAUCI: Well, yes, I mean, mandating I don't think is going to happen. There may be local mandates, Michael, and people keep thinking that the federal government is going to mandate that you wear a mask, that's not going to happen. But there may be individual institutions, organizations that are going to say, if you want to come to work, you've got to wear a mask.

There's nothing that the federal government can do about that. If people want to do it locally, I think people need to realize it is extremely unlikely that you're going to see a mandate, for example, from the CDC, which has no authority to mandate anything with regard to mask, they can only recommend it. So people essentially, for the most part, can do what they want to do based on their own evaluation of their own risk.

SMERCONISH: Dr. Fauci, nice to see you. Thank you for being here.

FAUCI: Good to be with you. Thank you Michael.

[09:30:00]

SMERCONISH: Social media reaction from the world of YouTube, I believe. What do we have?

Folks who read Enquirer or watch Fox won't mask or get the vaccine. And they'll blame Biden.

Gary, I don't think it will be limited to those who are in a media silo. I think I have seen too much data from too many different outlets suggesting that there is a belief among many that questioned the efficacy. As I pointed out the Cochrane study to Dr. Fauci and he rightly notes, well, you know, there are a lot of studies out there and you can find one with a different conclusion.

Don't want to be alarmist either. I think we made very, very clear there is reason for concern, for the reasons that I identified. Nobody is saying today that we are on the verge of there being a mask mandates. But I have been wondering, what if -- what if it takes a turn given the polarization in this country today and the strong sentiments that people have about the handling of the initial phase of the pandemic, would they ever go back and comply? And I doubt -- and I doubt that they would.

Social media. More social media. OK. What do we got? No? OK. You can -- guys, you're confusing me. How about if I just read the prompter and be Ron Burgundy?

I want to remind you go to my Web site at Smerconish.com and vote on today's poll question. Will Joe Biden be the Democratic nominee in 2024? Stay classy. Up ahead, this statue of abolitionist Harriet Tubman drew raves and crowds when it toured across America the past few years. So much so that Philadelphia decided it wanted to commission the sculptor to create a permanent version for the city. But controversy then ensued because the sculptor, Wesley Wofford, happens to be White. He will be here to tell us the story next.

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[09:35:53]

SMERCONISH: Question, when creating art that represents specific cultural or ethnic groups, should artists for those same groups be given preference? Questions of cultural appropriation they keep popping up of late in all kinds of circumstances, TV, music, fashion, movies. And now the issue has caried into the world of public art, specifically a sculpture here in Philadelphia.

Back in 2017, sculptor Wesley Wofford, who is White, was commissioned by a private collector to create a sculpture of abolitionist heroine, Harriet Tubman. When he posted pictures of the statue called a Journey to Freedom, many people asked if they could see it in person. Since the terms of his commission did not allow a reproduction he created an artist proof of it, and starting in February of 2020 went on the road with a tour of nearly 20 American cities.

It was displayed here in Philadelphia from January through March of 2022 in honor of Tubman's 200th birthday. It became so popular that the city asked to buy it. But again, the contract with the original owner meant it couldn't be sold so Philadelphia commissioned Wofford to the tune of about $500,000 to make a new work featuring her to stand in front of city hall. Then the complaints began.

Artists and other committee members argued that the city should have used a public selection process rather than awarding a commission. And part of the outrage was because he is a White guy.

Had been selected at first the city defended its choice. Kelly Lee, the executive director of the Office of Arts and Culture and Creative Economy, who is herself African American said this in a statement, "Philadelphia would not be commissioning this permanent Harriet Tubman statue if not for the public's positive response to Wofford's temporary statue. It would be inappropriate for the city to bring in a different artist to recreate the artistic expression of Wesley Wofford."

And members of Tubman's maternal family released this statement, "We believe Mr. Wofford is an excellent choice for creating the permanent statue of Harriet Tubman. We agree that a call to artists may have provided for an opportunity for an artist of color, but support Wesley Wofford receiving the commission.

Ultimately, the city backtracked. They issued an open call for submissions. They then received 50 applications and recently announced these five semi-finalist designs, all created by Black artists. The public was asked to vote on its preference with that vote ending last night. This public feedback will be weighed in the final decision-making in October by a committee composed of members of Tubman's family, historians, educators, artists, and others.

Wesley Wofford decided not to compete. He joins me now. He is on the board of directors of the National Sculpture Society. He has won both an Emmy and an Oscar for his work of the field of prosthetic makeup.

Wesley, thank you for being here. I should underscore you did not ask for this controversy, right? You brought a traveling exhibition to Philadelphia. The city then came to you. They wanted to acquire it. Is that correct?

WESLEY WOFFORD, SCULPTOR: Correct. First off, Michael, thanks for having me on and thanks for allowing this dialogue to happen. It is very important nuanced dialogue.

SMERCONISH: So, what happened? What was the basis of the opposition or complaint that you most often heard?

WOFFORD: So, there was a lot of -- just to kind of underscore, there was a lot of support for me, in general, and the work to happen. And so, there is always sort of two sides to these conversations. And I think that both sides are valid. It's conversations that we need to have.

Obviously, it came up the elephant in the room is the color of my skin and my gender. And also, you know, the process, how do these public works get acquired and the process of it should be a call to artists.

SMERCONISH: I mean, I get the latter. I get the idea that people say, wait a minute, there should have been a bid. But the way it all came to pass with you, with the traveling exhibition and the city not in the market for a Harriet Tubman statue but instead falling in love with your work, that kind of explains why it happened the way that it happened.

[09:40:05]

The troubling aspect is the role of race. Because frankly, by that logic, the hit Hamilton couldn't be on Broadway right now with a Black cast representing the work of our historical White figures. I mean, where would that end? Right?

WOFFORD: Right. And I think it is twofold. I think that call to artists that is one way to add to our public collection that is severely lacking in underrepresented groups, you know? It's a -- 50,000 objects in the country and 10 percent of them represent underrepresented stories. So, call to artists is one way to get there. And other ways are direct commissions of artists or purchases of existing works.

I mean, there are -- there are many artists that don't compete for call to artists because that is a different way to create art. And -- yes. So, I mean, that -- there's that element of it. And then also, the element to the sort of the what is an artist's role in society? Are artists -- do we only talk about ourselves or do we talk about one another?

And different artists approach that differently. So, if a Black community comes to me and says, we want to use your skill set to tell our story, of course, I am going to embrace that proposition.

SMERCONISH: It is a sensitive subject and you don't strike me as a guy looking to be a culture warrior. Like it occurs to me they'd love you on another network and would want to use you for their own purposes. So, what is it that you most want to say?

WOFFORD: Yes. I mean, I think that, for me, over the past year because I mean -- I was removed from that commission a year ago. And so, it is only coming back up because the five artists presented their designs.

And I think it is really important for us to think about the role of artists in the world. I think that artists create connections. We are the connective tissue that are trying to pull us together as a society.

So, like the empathy bridges that are -- artists cross referencing different cultures, genders, races, that is our job. And I think that the task ahead of us, regarding underrepresentation in our public spaces, is so huge that every living, working artist needs to be working on it.

It isn't that only, you know, Black artists should be sculpting Black subjects. I think that we all need to get there together. There is too much work ahead of us.

SMERCONISH: Amen. Wesley Wofford, I encourage people to go online and look at your amazing work. Thank you for being here to tell your story.

WOFFORD: Thank you very much for having me, Michael. I appreciate it.

SMERCONISH: Still to come, your best and worst social media comments and we'll give you the final result of today's poll question. Go to Smerconish.com. By the way, register for the free daily newsletter while you are there and tell me this, will Joe Biden be the Democratic nominee in 2024?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:47:23]

SMERCONISH: Here is some of what is on your mind this Labor Day weekend. Social media, from the program so far.

Linda says, Wow. I turned on CNN this morning and thought I was watching Fox or Newsmax. Move over negative Nancy, we have negative Michael.

No. Linda Greer, what you have is Michael Smerconish having spent the last two weeks gaming out here on CNN, as I do every day on radio. How is the Republican nomination going to end? He is four times indicted. When the trials get going, if they get going before the nomination is concluded, can Donald Trump really withstand the crash of all of that negative attention?

Is the Republican support going to dissipate? Now, is that appropriate for me to do? I think you would say that it was.

So today, the lesson was, hmm, how about the Democrat side of the aisle? Joe Biden's approval rating stands at only 42 percent. Seventy- five percent of the country say they don't want him to run for re- election, which is higher than 69 percent who say the same thing about Donald Trump.

Does that not warrant a little explanation? And maybe a little conjecture as to what happens if Biden really doesn't see it through? Is it Kamala Harris' or will there be competition? No. I stand by that commentary and all the data that I quoted on it when making my presentation.

What is next? Anymore, Catherine, that I have time to respond to? I love the social media.

Joseph Abrams. If Biden had a running mate who was perceived to be more prepared as a commander-in-chief, his age would be less of a factor.

Well, Joseph, to your point, the concerns expressed about his age -- and again, I quoted all the data at the outset of the program, only shine an additional spotlight on his number two. I feel like every four years we talk about the importance of the vice president and then people go in and ultimately they vote only the top of the ticket. And in the last cycle, they do not vote about Joe Biden. It was a referendum on Trump and Trump failed.

This cycle will be different and I think there will be much more attention on both of their running mates because of the age of each of them. I mean, Biden is 80. Trump is 77.

One more. I think I've got time. Let's see. Can I do a whole hour of this one weekend?

Art is a creation, says Bill Snyder. Doesn't matter who makes it. This type of controversy only breeds more racism.

I can say I am embarrassed about this story. I'm so grateful that the sculptor was willing to come on the program. He did not go looking for this. OK? He is commissioned to do a statue, puts it online. Everybody is like, wow, that is awesome.

He puts together a touring exhibition of his artist proof. And when he gets to Philly they say, can we have this? We love it. We'll display it on the city hall apron. So, they are making a deal and now the word gets out and people are like, wait a minute, this needs to be publicly bid.

[09:50:04] I kind of get that in the normal set of circumstances. But then the criticism was, hey, he is a White guy. He can't make a Harriet Tubman statue. And that's dangerous.

I mean, Hamilton could not have been staged on Broadway by that logic. It does none of us any good.

Still to come, the final results of this week's poll question. You can still go vote at Smerconish.com. Will Joe Biden be the Democratic nominee? My eye is on the number of no votes. I think the yes votes will win, but how many are actually voting no? We're about to find out.

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[09:55:03]

SMERCONISH: So, there's the result of this week's poll question at Smerconish.com. We'll keep it open. You can keep voting.

Three quarters say, yes, of course Joe Biden's going to be the Democratic nominee in 2024. But of nearly 30,000 voices, I find it significant that about a quarter, 26 percent say, no, when all is said and done, he won't be.

My own perspective is that as of today, what's most likely? Most likely is that it's a rematch of 2020 and it's Biden and it's Trump. I mean, that's what my -- that's what my head tells me, but emotionally another part of me says -- it says this. There are people that we've never heard of. There are events we can never imagine that are still to play themselves out in the course of the next 15 months.

The truth is, we have no idea what's about to unfold unless you can look around corners. So, I wouldn't be surprised if when all were said and done it's none of the above. It's not a prediction, but it wouldn't surprise me. Enjoy Labor Day weekend.

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