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Smerconish

"What's Wrong With Presidential Debates, And How To Fix Them"; President Biden's Campaign Message: Trump Has "Snapped"; Lanny Davis: "Hunter Biden, Trump Should Be Pardoned And Sentences Commuted." Aired 9-10a ET

Aired June 22, 2024 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: It was the truth. A reminder that this history is recent history and it's not just black history is American history. Sixty Negro League players attended that tribute. The MLB says it was the largest official gathering of the league's players in nearly 30 years. So to Reggie Jackson, and those men, I see you.

Thanks for joining me today. I'll see you back here next Saturday at 8:00 a.m. Eastern. Smerconish is up next.

[09:00:41]

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN ANCHOR: Setting the bar. I'm Michael Smerconish in Philadelphia. Thursday here on CNN is the first of two scheduled debates between President Biden and Trump. Jake Tapper and Dana Bash will moderate. The debate will last 90 minutes with no live audience.

There will be no opening statements. Answers will be two minutes, rebuttals will be one minute. Closing statements will be two minutes. Based on a coin toss, Trump will go last. There will be two commercial breaks and perhaps the biggest rankle microphones will be muted when it's not someone's turn.

The stakes are high. The race is tight, whether measured in national surveys, or by battleground states. So the debate is a very big deal and opinions as to who won will no longer be influenced by expectations. Advantage, Joe Biden. And here's why, I call it, be careful what you wish for.

In the last two weeks, President Biden traveled overseas to participate in a commemoration of the 80th anniversary of D-Day. Then he came home. On June 10, he attended a Juneteenth concert on the White House lawn and it a widely circulated video he looked well stayed standing amidst a crowd dancing to the music. That video was shown on a loop over at Fox News. Then he returned to Europe to participate in a meeting of G7 leaders. The result was another viral video no doubt you've seen this footage of the President on June 13.

And if you watch the version presented on a certain outlet, he looked last befuddled and ultimately rescued by the Italian Prime Minister. It's not that the video was edited. It's all a matter of the camera angle that was shown. "The Washington Post did a nice job in giving the full view. And seen from a wide lens we see that the President's attention was captured by parachutists whom he seemed eager to engage and maybe congratulate on their landing.

Then came last Saturday night. At a star studded Los Angeles fundraiser, this time, the first video that went viral recorded by The Hollywood Reporter is Christopher Gardner seem to show President Obama rescuing a frozen President Biden. These two shown on a loop. And once again, then we got to see additional angles of what happened. They depicted the president standing still basking in the glow of a supportive crowd perhaps until Obama signaled it was time to go.

The video for the L.A. fundraiser has become an election Rorschach test. Republicans they see frailty. Democrats they see friendship. The White House accused opponents of playing cheap fakes video and promoting misinformation. Fox responded that they only played unedited videos and then took the opportunity to play them again and again and again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: Americans holier than now so called journalists that are really talk show hosts that are very liberal reported that a string of very real unedited videos showing your President Joe Biden struggling in public calling them cheap fake videos. The media mob and Democrats that's the new favorite word, take a look.

NICOLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST: Cheap fakes videos have relevance that are intentionally manipulated.

STEPHANIE RUHLE, MSNBC HOST: Karine Jean-Pierre and others are calling these cheap fakes. But what it is, is truly deceitful behavior.

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: What the White House is calling cheap fakes.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: We're hearing about so called cheap fakes. It's --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: Then came Tuesday, at another Juneteenth Celebration, President Biden seem to lose his train of thought and forget the name of his DHS Secretary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My name is Joe Biden. I'm Jill Biden's husband. Thanks to all the members of Congress and Homeland Security Secretary -- I'm not sure going to under show what. But all kidding aside, Secretary Mayorkas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: Here's the thing. The President's mental acuity it is relevant. Yes, it is. I talked about it on my radio program. But the airing of these videos and the resulting conversation may have just done President Biden an enormous favor. Expectations are important to determine debate performance. Biden's opponents have now so lowered the bar for the incumbent that if he can just remain standing and deliver cogent sentences viewers will think he had a pretty good night and the burden will shift to Donald Trump. We've seen it before. Recall that in the run up to President Biden State of the Union address on March 7, there were suggestions from some that it was time for Biden to step aside and surrender the nomination due to his fading mental acuity. And those advocates were not normally democratic detractors.

[09:05:27]

The drumbeat started with David Ignatius in "The Washington Post" back in September, he said, I don't think Biden and Vice President Harris should run for reelection. It's painful to say that given my admiration for much of what they've accomplished. But if he and Harris campaign together in 2024, I think Biden risks undoing his greatest achievement, which was stopping Trump. Biden's age isn't just a Fox News trope, it's been the subject of dinner table conversations across America this summer."

Then James Carville said this to me here in February about Biden skipping the opportunity to do the traditional pre Super Bowl interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES CARVILLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST/CO-HOST, POLITICS WAR ROOM PODCAST: He said, biggest television audience, not even close, and you get a chance to do a 20, 25 minute interview on that day, and you don't do it, that's a kind of sign that the staff or yourself doesn't have much confidence in you. There's no other way to read this. And he's not going to do debates. He is O, I know what it is because I'm almost as old as he is, and it's never going to get better. You're never -- you know, today today is the youngest you'll ever be for the rest of your life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: A few days later, Ezra Klein from the "New York Times" said similar things on his podcast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EZRA KLEIN, "THE EZRA KLEIN SHOW" PODCAST: I was stunned when his team passed on the Super Bowl interview. Biden is not up by 12 points. He can't close to victory, he's losing. Whether it is true that Biden has it all under control, it is not true that he seems like he does. So yes, I think Biden, as painful as this is, should find his way to stepping down as a hero.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: Soon after Nate Silver was tweeting, quote, "Biden needs to reassure the American public that he's capable of handling public appearances that aren't on easy mode, or he needs to stand down or he's probably going to lose to Trump." In the accompanying article, Silver elaborated, it's become even clearer that Biden's age is an enormous problem for him. As many as 86 percent of Americans say he's too old in one poll." The this was referring to Biden doing more lengthy interviews.

But then, in the State of the Union, President Biden spoke forcefully and he received positive reviews. The talk of him stepping aside quieted, at least for a while. And yet now with these videos that Biden detractors show and discuss on a loop, the talk is back. Perhaps it's a case of be careful what you wish for because all the talk has lowered Biden's debate bar so far, that it won't take much for him to exceed it and be perceived as the winner as happened with the State of the Union.

And this may be why after months of assailing Biden's mental abilities, even suggesting that Biden would need to take drugs to enhance his performance, Trump is suddenly shifting his tone. During an episode of the All-In podcast hosted by Silicon Valley entrepreneurs released on Thursday while continuing to attack him, Trump said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I assume he's going to be somebody that will be a worthy debater. Yes, I would say. I think I don't want to underestimate him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: So, who's going to win on Thursday night? For all these reasons, Joe Biden begins in the lead.

I want to know what you think. Go to my website at smerconish.com. Answer a different question. Who's got more to lose in the debate, Biden or Trump?

Joining me now is John Donvan, who is a best selling author, a four time Emmy winner. And since 2008, the moderator and chief for the group now called Open to Debate, which bills itself as a nonpartisan debate driven media organization dedicated to bringing multiple viewpoints together for a constructive, balanced, respectful exchange of ideas. Their group recently published this report, discourse correction, what's wrong with the presidential debates and how to fix them. He's also the co-author of "In a Different Key, The Story of Autism," which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize.

John, I remember, in your Oxford style debating, when people used to vote as they would enter the theater and then vote at the end, and you would measure change. Here, I'm arguing that it's a function of expectations. What do you think?

JOHN DONVAN, MODERATOR IN CHIEF, OPEN TO DEBATE: I think you make a very good case to the extent that this is a horse race type event. All politics has that horse race element to it. And if there are questions about Joe Biden's cognitive ability, a debate is a very, very serious cognitive challenge, a cognitive test in itself. You know, we've done 300 debates and we've had some very, very high powered people on the stage, we've had CEOs and ambassadors and members of Congress and famous philosophers and foreign politicians. And they all find it a challenge, and some of them are very, very bright people.

[09:10:18]

Nevertheless, they find the pace, the speed, the fact that they're being rebutted in real time, quite a challenge. So if Joe Biden were to come through this, with not just meeting but exceeding expectations, I have to say, I think that I agree with the case that you made.

SMERCONISH: I think that your group's advice, suggestions for how to change the debates, fascinating. For example, you say begin as you question with a binary choice, get them to answer yes or no and lock them in before expanding beyond that, talk to me about it.

DONVAN: That framework is inspired by what we do at open to debate where we take a single question, and we bring people on to talk about that one question for an hour. What -- how they would answer yes or no. And what happens by virtue of the fact that we have a full hour for a topic is you get to see in depth, not just how a person would make their case, but how they will defend their case where their basic philosophy comes from, how their logic works, how they think in real time. But for that to work, there needs to be a clear division of sides. Yes or no sets that up better than anything else.

It really sets up a dichotomy of two views that are in conflict with each other, just basically from the beginning. And that has not been the case, generally with the presidential debates. They're -- very often there's a question that's put to one debater, for example, years ago, Bernie Shaw asked Mike Dukakis, what he would do if his wife were raped, what his reaction would be? I think that was a terrible question, because it wasn't a debatable question. He didn't then ask everybody else that.

He didn't ask everybody else, what do you think of Mike Dukakis' answer? It was much more like a press conference moment. There wasn't a back and forth a yes or no for anybody else on the stage to debate. And that's where we think things really can go deep and kept meaningful.

SMERCONISH: John, as you say, you've moderated more than 300 debates, Oxford style debates. And I'm a huge fan of the group in the organization. And as I tell you, I take you for a walk because they're timed for the same distance that I like to take this normal path.

I also have great respect for Jake and for Dana. What are the unique challenges you think they face in a presidential debate like this?

DONVAN: The biggest challenge, I think that they will face has been addressed by having the silent the mics -- giving them the ability to silence the microphone. The biggest challenge in these debates has been particularly in recent years. And that's what we've seen in the study that we commissioned. Our CEO Clea Conner ask two researchers at Princeton to go look at the past debates. And the fact is that the tendency has been particularly in the last several rounds of election cycles for the control to get lost because the debaters don't observe time. They don't shut up when the other person is talking particularly one was more liable to do that than the other. And the problem with that is things go off point, time runs out the clock.

And being able to turn off the mic is a really powerful tool. And I think that Jake and Dana are very, very much more empowered now to control things that way. And the other thing along the way is to just check the debaters and are you answering the question, to call them out when they're not answering the question. Not get into an argument with the debate -- with the candidates. Don't try to fact check them because I think that's a very, very problematic area.

But just to know that they are going to come in with things that they want to say that they prepared, they may even have memorized that they're going to resort to again and again, and to not let that happen, to call them out and keep things on track.

SMERCONISH: I'm concerned that the moderation of the mic is going to stifle some of the better exchanges that have come from past debates. Why am I wrong?

DONVAN: Yes. No, you're not wrong. There's no question that there's a sort of atmospheric buzz that you get when they can break in on each other. And in our debates, we do have a portion of the debate in which that's allowed. But we also have a portion of the debate in which you have to not speak.

And in the limited time that's allowed for the topics in these presidential debates, you know, two minutes, two minutes, one minute, one minute, maybe a little bit more, and then they move on to another topic. If they're interrupting each other, interruptions tend to be not in good faith, which they are in our stage, there is such a thing as interrupting in good faith. But they tend to take things down a sidetrack, I did say that, no, I didn't say that, you're misrepresenting me, you're not misrepresenting me. That takes up time. And frankly, how useful is that kind of thing.

So, given the choice between losing that atmospheric buzz and keeping the substance on track, in this case, I vote for keeping the substance on track. If I were moderating the debate I would want to have that mic switch myself.

[09:15:09]

SMERCONISH: Open to Debate, John Donvan. Thank you, John, for being here. Appreciate your expertise.

DONVAN: Mike, can I just say one thing? My sister Nancy is a huge fan of yours. I'm sure she's watching. She listens to your radio show all the time. So, I just want to say Hi, Nancy.

SMERCONISH: So do I. Thank you for that.

What are your thoughts? Hit me up on social media and I'll read some responses throughout the course of the program. From X formerly known as Twitter, This is a real risk for Biden, everybody knows the sterile environment, no studio audience. Biden friendly moderators and network demanded by his team to help him. He has more to lose.

I think he has more to lose as well. And that is today's poll question. But I think that the lack of studio audience actually is advantageous to Biden, not a detriment to him, because it's like stepping on Donald Trump's oxygen hose. I think that he feeds on an audience. When you watch him address a crowd, even an unfriendly crowd, you can see the wheels in his head spinning and determining, you know, what line is working and what line is not.

And he will be missing that ability to base his responses on how it's going. So, yes, interesting.

I want to know what you think. Go to my website at smerconish.com Answer today's poll question, who's got more to lose on Thursday night? Who has more to lose in this debate?

Up ahead, when it comes to the recent convictions, both Hunter Biden and Donald Trump, former White House Special Counsel, Lanny Davis, has a radical proposal based on what happened with President Nixon. He says, pardon them both and do it now and commute any prison terms. And he's here to explain and defend that view.

Plus, Joe Biden has landed on what his main message about Trump will be, that the threat Trump poses would be even greater in a second term than it was in the first. Is that going to win? I'll ask David Axelrod.

Please make sure you're signing up for the free smerconish.com daily newsletter. You'll get exclusive content from political cartoonist. Come on, look at that. Steve Breen drew that for us this week. Does that not sum it all up?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:21:40]

SMERCONISH: President Biden has settled on a central message to his reelection campaign make the 2024 race a referendum against Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: The threat that Trump pose is greater in his second term than his first. It's clearer than when he lost in 2020, something literally snapped in his sky.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: But a Pew Research Center study finds that 42 percent of Americans have a more favorable opinion of Trump's presidency than Biden's with only 28 percent saying Biden was a good or great president. Trump is framing this election as a referendum on Biden and Biden's record pertaining to the economy of inflation, immigration and public safety. So, which of these campaign messages will resonate better with voters? Joining me now is David Axelrod, the CNN senior political commentator, former senior adviser to President Obama and host of The X Files podcast.

David, great to see you when he lost in 2020 --

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good to see you, Mike.

SMERCONISH: -- something snapped in him, will that be an effective message?

AXELROD: Well, I understand the intent of it. It's to give a permission structure to people who voted for Trump in 2020 to say I'm not going to do it again. But I don't think it's sufficient. Because you have to, in some way, answer questions about yourself.

And I actually think that, you know, as part of this message thing -- by the way, it's a little unusual. We're almost in July of the election year for a campaign to say, aha, we've discovered the message. But I think a real and true message is one they've begun to circle, which is, Biden is a guy who's earnestly working every day to try and address the problems of the American people. And Trump every day is working in his own interest. And I think that's what people believe.

I think there's a fundamental difference between public perception of their motivations. And you then can talk about various issues, whether it's abortion rights or taxes or any number of issues on which Biden is on one side, Trump is on another side. You know, a great example of this is immigration. Yes, that issue has worked well, for Trump in this election campaign so far. But you know, last winter, he had a chance -- there was a chance to do something really, really meaningful about the border and Trump directed his Republican acolytes in the Senate to kill it.

Why? He said at the at that moment, he said, because Biden would get credit for it, and we want the issue. That's Trump. I mean, that's Trump in a nutshell. And I think that can be exploited.

I heard the Vice President talking about this yesterday. She did a really good job on this. I think that's where they should go.

SMERCONISH: One hundred and sixteen million or so dollars have been spent by President Biden and his allies thus far. And some say, well, they don't have anything to show for it, because nothing has moved the needle. Is it that or is it the fact that a lot of that money has been spent in a ground game that we won't recognize until the fall?

AXELROD: Well, I think that the -- some of that is true, that I think they've had a head start on putting organization together. They've also supported state parties in states like Wisconsin, which are much stronger than the Republicans state organizations which have been decimated in the last few years in part because of Trump. But you know, I do think that the money is going to even up here and how you use it messaging -- message wise, is going to be very, very important.

[09:25:21]

And so the first question you asked is really the most important. The Trump message is clear, which is the world's out of control, times not in command, I'm strong, he's weak, elect me, it's very easy to understand. You know, the Biden campaign has to get into a similar cadence and deliver it in through all its modes of communication, including what they do in the field.

SMERCONISH: David, it couldn't be closer according to all the metrics, I'm going to put on the screen the result of 538 running 1000 simulations.

AXELROD: Yes.

SMERCONISH: And essentially half the time they say it's Biden, and half the time they say it's Trump. Your reaction?

AXELROD: Listen, I think that is the reality. You know, I would guess if the election were today, Trump might win. But I sure wouldn't bet on November. And I think anybody who makes confident predictions one way or the other is making a big mistake. This is a closely divided country.

And you have two candidates who are historically unpopular to nominees, each of whom have flaws that concern people. Yes, there is a concern about Biden's age that you address, and whether he can control events. But there are real concerns about whether Trump can control himself, which is one of the -- which is one -- or whether anybody else can for that matter, which is one of the issues that, you know, will put him on trial in this debate, and how he behaves in this debate. So there are big questions about both these candidates that have yet to be answered definitively for a significant number of voters, 25 percent of whom say they have a unfavorable view of both these candidates and could vote for third parties, by the way.

SMERCONISH: In our final 30 seconds, tell me what's the one thing David Axelrod most wants to see Thursday night?

AXELROD: Well, look, I think from Biden, I would like to see him make this a very comparative exercise. Don't get caught up in that presidential trap of, you know, touting your own record and defending your own record endlessly. And you know, I told you what I think that, you know, it'll be interesting to me to see if Trump is the Trump who was in that first debate in 2020 --

SMERCONISH: Right.

AXELROD: -- and did a terrible damage to himself by being obnoxious and into heckling and interrupting.

SMERCONISH: David Axelrod, thank you as always. We appreciate you.

AXELROD: Good to see you, Michael.

SMERCONISH: Social media from the world of X, what has come in? Lots of stuff, I'm told. No, none of it is working. Trump still is likely to lose, but the Dems campaign strategy is horrific. Not one word of hope, not one mention of what they will do for the American family who really are hurting. It's all about abortion and Trump-hate.

I thought that David Axelrod just had a really insightful assessment. Because I said to him, is this going -- is this going to work? The idea that President Biden is saying something snapped in Trump. And what David said is, it's giving cover to those who voted for Donald Trump last time to return if they were once Democrats to the Democratic fold. It's like, OK, you voted for that guy but the one who's running right now is not the same one you voted for.

We'll see if it's an effective strategy. You got to believe that they've, you know, they've game theory it out and focus grouped and tested, and so on and so forth. Nothing has worked so far to move that needle. I don't know if this will, but David's analysis was really interesting.

Please make sure you're going to my website at smerconish.com. Who's got more to lose in this debate? Is it Biden or is it Trump?

Up ahead, oh, boy, you ready for this conversation? Should both Hunter Biden and Donald Trump be pardoned for their recent convictions and have whatever sentences might result commuted? That is the suggestion of my next guest, Lanny Davis. What's he thinking? What's the rationale? I will ask him.

And if you subscribe to my daily newsletter at smerconish.com when you're there to vote, you're going to get exclusive editorial cartoons from the legends like Rob Rogers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:34:09]

SMERCONISH: To diffuse the sharp political divisions over the prosecutions of Hunter Biden and Donald Trump should they both be pardoned now and any sentences that might result be commuted?

That is the provocative proposal made by Lanny Davis, former special counsel for then President Clinton, and crisis management expert, and former legal adviser to Michael Cohen. Lanny Davis just wrote this piece for "Real Clear Politics," headlined, "Hunter Biden, Donald Trump Should Be Pardoned and Sentences Commuted."

And in it he writes, "I was once angry with Gerald Ford when he pardoned Richard Nixon for his Watergate crimes days after assuming the presidency in 1974. With the benefit of hindsight, I, and many leading historians, believe that President Ford made the right decision."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GERALD FORD, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My fellow Americans, our long national nightmare is over.

(END VIDEO CLIP) [09:35:03]

SMERCONISH: Lanny goes on to say that in his wisdom, Ford realized that the healing process could never begin as long as Nixon's behavior was the subject of criminal prosecutions. Since Donald Trump was tried and convicted, a cornerstone of our democracy, the rule of law, has been upheld. Incarcerating Trump would undermine that message by making him a martyr to his followers.

Lanny Davis joins me now. OK, Lanny, explain to me the logic in you wanting both Trump and Hunter Biden free of the law.

LANNY DAVIS, FORMER SPECIAL COUNSEL FOR PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, first of all, it's a bit ironic that I am getting criticism mostly from my friends, who are Democrats and opposed to Donald Trump as I am, but I can understand that they still are angry as I was with Gerald Ford.

It took many years later, in fact, at our seder table, my wonderful wife, who's a big Smerconish fan too, by the way, told John we have family members in the Smerconish camp, we dedicated our seder to Gerald Ford after he passed recently. And we did so because of the judgment over 20 or more years of history that he did the right thing.

So, I look back at my changed conduct, my changed attitude towards Gerald Ford, and thought to myself, Donald Trump, unlike Richard Nixon, was held accountable, indicted, and convicted by a jury of his peers, even if it was a heavily Democratic jury pool, at least one or two jurors by that statistic, were Trump voters who voted beyond a reasonable doubt. So, he has been held accountable. That's even more than in the Nixon case where Ford pardoned him before trial.

But then I looked at Hunter Biden and the empathy that so many people feel towards addiction and the disease of addiction. And I thought that by mentioning he deserves to be commuted in any sentence now that he's been held to the principle of the rule of law.

And Senator J.D. Vance, who I praised in his book about the addiction in "Hillbilly Elegy," his great book, would -- I think would be tremendous to join me in a bipartisan way to call upon the commutation for Hunter Biden as well.

SMERCONISH: Here's some of the reaction. I'm going to put something up on the screen and I'll read it aloud. Some of the reaction that Lanny Davis has received.

Joe Biden pressuring Governor Hochul to pardon Trump, because that's what it would take as you recognize, would quite possibly cost him the election. Dems would be so incensed that they would stay home in droves. To think anything else is simply ludicrous.

Lanny, what would be the political impact of what you recommend?

DAVIS: Well, first of all, that individual used the word pressure. I never used that word, so that's his opinion or interpretation. I simply said that President Biden could ask and let Governor Hochul make up her mind. Secondly, the action or reaction of anybody to the notion of pardoning Donald Trump, who's been as opposed to Donald Trump as I have been, my friend and former client, Michael Cohen, his life and his family were threatened by Donald Trump when Trump called him a rat before he went to prison. So, I'm no apologist for -- certainly for Donald Trump.

So, people can -- my own daughter was angry with me for this, or at least criticize me for this column because of her concern about Mr. Trump. My point is, with the wisdom of hindsight let's think about healing the country and beating Trump at the polls on the issues and on his character. As opposed to creating another round of martyrdom by trying to send him to jail, which I've been very consistent about and opposing the incarceration of an ex-president.

SMERCONISH: So, a lot of the criticism that I've monitored that you're receiving seems to be along two lines, to two dueling -- two lines that are on the same track. One of which is there's not parity here. One is a former president now running for president. The other is presidential offspring.

And secondly, Trump has three trials to go and has been convicted once. In the case of Hunter Biden, he has been convicted. He's got one trial to go. It doesn't seem fair to those critics that you'd be giving Trump the enormity of the pass.

DAVIS: So, I completely agree these are so different. One is a result of an addiction disease, the other is a precalculated, premeditated crime found by 12 jurors in New York City. And there are three other crimes that he's not yet been held to account for.

But at least we have the principle of accountability that he was convicted of 34 felonies unlike Richard Nixon. Yet in the wisdom of hindsight, the country healed and didn't have to go through Watergate trials. And we were able to move on.

Now this election, as we just heard in our previous conversations, is really about Donald Trump and whether he's going to be the Donald Trump who was the insurrectionist, who doesn't respect the truth. Versus Joe Biden, who regardless of what you think of Joe Biden, there's almost universal among Trump voters that I know, he's a decent man who has tried to do the right thing as president.

[09:40:08]

That should be what the election is about, not whether he is prosecuted again and again and again, which I certainly think he deserves to be. I'd like this election to be decided at the ballot box.

SMERCONISH: Lanny, let's take a look together at some social media reaction. From the world of Twitter, now known as X. What do we have, Catherine?

If Biden pardons Trump and his son, it's a win for him. What could Trump say? No, I'm not taking your pardon? Putting your opponent in a situation where he has to be grateful? No better scenario. But it won't happen.

You would say what to John Fitzpatrick?

DAVIS: It's a very important point to remember that when you accept a pardon, and Gerald Ford made this point when he pardoned Richard Nixon, you accept criminal responsibility or you reject the pardon. And so, it will put Mr. Trump in an interesting place.

Also, it's the right thing to do if what we're talking about is beating Trump on the issues which, as a Democrat, of course, and as somebody who has been very concerned about Trump's respect for the rule of law, his role in the insurrection, his promise to abandon the constitution, believe what he says, that's where we should beat him.

David Axelrod has it exactly right. Joe Biden has to prove that he's up to the job, and I believe he will at the debate, but let's decide -- just to repeat again, Michael. I understand my own family in some respects, disagreeing strongly with what I wrote, but I also believe that we can beat Mr. Trump at the ballot box, and that would be the better outcome than allowing him to continue to martyr himself as a victim of a criminal justice system, that the very same system convicted Joe Biden's son, and Joe Biden said, no, I will not pardon or commute my own son.

SMERCONISH: I'm limited on time. I'm just going to say relative to the political argument you make, just look at what Trump raised, 70 plus million in the 48 hours after the conviction. So, that -- this has benefited him in the election so far, maybe not ultimately in the general, is unmistakable. Lanny, thank you for being here. That was very provocative --

DAVIS: Thank you, Michael.

SMERCONISH: -- and I appreciate it.

DAVIS: Thank you very much.

SMERCONISH: OK. Still to come, more of your best and worst social media comments. Don't forget, are you voting on today's poll question? Go to Smerconish.com. Tell me who has got more to lose in this debate, Biden or Trump?

When you're their voting, sign up for the free daily newsletter. You'll also get the editorial work of our cartoonists. Scott Stantis of the "Dallas Morning News" and "Chicago Tribune" sketched this for us this week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:47:10]

SMERCONISH: I'm told there's tons of social media reaction to this week's program so far. Thank you for that. I'm on all the usual platforms.

How can you and other misguided talking heads -- oh boy, here we go -- constantly putting Biden's mental acuity under the microscope while Trump's obvious derangement escapes your scrutiny. Go ahead and play the unedited tapes of sharks, electric boats, Hannibal Lecter, and made up --

Look, I mean, we have two choices with a lot of deficiencies. In the category of vim and vigor, you're not going to like hearing this, but Trump is the stronger of the candidates, OK? And this week, all week long on Fox, on a loop, they've been showing all of these videos and videos and videos. You may not know that because maybe you're not watching that outlet, but half the country is getting their news there.

So, I think it's important that everybody else know here's what they're doing. And what was my message? Did you miss my message? My message is that Fox, which is in the tank for Donald Trump, and Trump are both committing political malpractice. That was my message.

Do you disagree with that message? The message is by showing these videos that purport to show Biden in a diminished capacity on a loop all you're doing is lowering the bar that he can easily exceed in the debate. That's my point. And I also provided context for each one of those videos. So yes, I'm giving no quarter in that regard.

What else came in in terms of social media reaction? We have this.

Smerconish now advocating for a pardon of Trump.

Oh, my God. I love this. I love it.

You are one sick mf'er -- OK. By the way, Northern Lights, direct it to Lanny Davis. OK? Lanny -- what was most significant about Lanny -- can you put that camera back on me?

What's most significant about Lanny is he represented Michael Cohen. He went to Yale law school with Bill and Hillary. He's their friend and served in a legal capacity to President Clinton back in the 90s. And it's Lanny, like it wouldn't be significant if were me saying it.

Although, I happen to agree with Lanny. No, it's Lanny who says, you know what with the hindsight of what we went through in the 70s with Nixon and with Ford, we should probably try and put this all behind us. So, he's the one who's purporting the idea. He has put it forth but -- OK. I do think it has merit as well.

What's going to happen if Trump loses the election, and these three prosecutions are outstanding? Do you want him tried then? Do you want a Hunter Biden to go to jail for checking the box on the gun form? Because I don't.

The final result of today's poll question at Smerconish.com, who's got more to lose in the debate? Just around the corner. Come back to us in just a second.

Make sure you're signing up for my daily the newsletter. Jack Ohman, the Pulitzer Prize winner, come on in light of what's going on at the "Washington Post," is that not perfect? (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:54:40]

SMERCONISH: OK. There's the poll result so far, 29,003. Who has more to lose in the debate? Sixty-two percent have the correct answer and say Joe Biden. Yes, it's Biden because -- just ask yourself, who could make a faux pas in the debate as between the two of them, that could jeopardize their hold of the nomination? It's Biden.

[09:55:00]

It's not Trump. Quickly, one social media, if I've got time to squeeze in another one. What do we have?

Smerconish, Biden should say he will pardon the criminal during the debate. Take the wind out of Trump.

Well, Bernie, you must be agreeing then with what Lanny Davis just had to say here. I think that Lanny made a good point in saying that -- in Lanny's view not only is it the right thing to do for the country to get beyond both Trump and Hunter. And no, I'm not seeing them in similar light, but they're both newsworthy at this time.

But Lanny also makes the argument that politically he thinks it would be wise for President Biden to do so. Of course, you know, he'd be leaning on Kathy Hochul because that's the only way that it can get done.

OK. I'll see you next weekend.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)