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McBride Says GOP Is Trying To "Manufacture A Crisis"; Noonan: "We Are Back To The Island Of Misfit Toys". How Ultraprocessed Foods Affect Your Health. Aired 9-10

Aired November 23, 2024 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Week are journalist Kara Swisher and comedian Jenny Hagel. You can watch tonight at 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific on CNN.

Thank you so much for joining me today. I will see you back here next Saturday at 8:00 a.m. Eastern. Happy Thanksgiving. And shout out to everybody who appreciates a good, inexpensive jellied cranberry sauce straight out the can with the ribs. Slice it on the side later for the whole cranberries. Smerconish is up next.

[09:00:34]

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN ANCHOR: LGBQ. I'm Michael Smerconish in Philadelphia.

The T was missing this week. We seem to have consensus on lesbian, gay, bisexual and queer or questioning rights in America. In 2015, the Supreme Court upheld same sex marriage in the Obergefell case, notwithstanding the occasional baker who refuses to bake a wedding cake for a same sex couple. I'd say by and large we've moved on from the debate surrounding same sex marriage. But the T in LGBTQ, as in transgender, has become the new cultural and political divide.

As noted by the "New York Times," the Trump campaign spent more than 37 million on television ads that invoke transgender issues, nearly 20 percent of its overall ad budget. That, according to data provided by Ad Impact, an organization that tracks political ad placement and spending.

They would never have spent that kind of money without some confirmation that the message was resonating. In one of the election's most notable ads, the Trump campaign highlighted Kamala Harris embrace of transgender inmate access to taxpayer funded transitions. You'll remember the tagline Kamala is for they them. Trump is for you. It was the Willie Horton ad of the 2024 cycle.

An analysis indicated that the Kamala is for they them ad shifted the race by 2.7 percentage points in favor of Trump after viewers watched it. The shift was particularly pronounced among suburban women and young male voters. But at the same time this cudgel was helping elect Donald Trump, something interesting was happening in Delaware. There, voters elected Sarah McBride, who'd become the nation's first trans candidate elected to a state Senate. Now as the nation's first transgender member of Congress.

Enter Republican Nancy Mace, who we invited, by the way, to be on the program this week, she declined, but what she did do was introduce legislation to restrict capital restroom use to a person's biological sex. House Speaker Mike Johnson agreed. McBride stayed above the fray, saying she didn't run for Congress to fight about bathrooms. She also tweeted, "Every day Americans go to work with people who have life journeys different from their own and engage with them respectfully. I hope members of Congress can muster that same kindness."

In Contrast to that grace, Nancy Mace went on the offensive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you suggesting that the representative elect McBride poses some kind of danger to you and other women --

NANCY MACE (R-SC): Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Hundred percent. This is an assault on women. A man being a biological man, a man with a penis, male genitalia, being in a women's locker room is an assault on women.

And so the question is, do I have rights as a woman or not? And I'm not going to allow the media or Congress to strip away women's rights for 1/2 of 1 percent of people out there. That more than likely he's got a mental illness, and this is why he's doing this. He should not be forcing his private parts into women's private spaces. I'm absolutely a no hard pass on this.

I'm going to fight it every step of the way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: Now she's gone so far as to sell merchandise off her transgender bathroom bill, T shirts that say, come and take it. It represents quite an expedient change for Nancy Mace, as noted by Monica Hess at the "Washington Post," "In a 2021 tweet unearthed this week, Mace posted a heartfelt pride message to her constituents. The pandemic kept all of us from fully celebrating pride here in the low country in 2020. But hopefully, as we finally begin to open back up, we can all come together to celebrate the challenges our LGBTQ plus has overcome and the bright future ahead. And in March of 2021, she told the Washington Examiner, a conservative newspaper, I strongly support LGBTQ rights and equality. No one should be discriminated against."

Hess also notes something that I've long said on my SiriusXM radio program, which is that women's bathrooms have stalls. Nobody's in anyone else's space. A detail that Nancy Mace seems to ignore. And yesterday on my radio program, I took a call from Yamani (ph) in Columbus, Ohio. She made an interesting point.

She said, if Nancy Mace wants bathrooms assigned by biological birth, how is she going to feel when a trans man is now in the next stall? So what changed? The congresswoman obviously realized the resonance of the anti-trans talk, which I find sad and despicable and anti- conservative. What happened to the Gadsden flag? You know, what happened to live and let live?

[09:05:08]

Before the age of charlatans there were real conservatives like Barry Goldwater who when asked to campaign against gays in the military said, "You don't need to be straight to fight and die for your country. You just need to shoot straight."

Democrats were caught flat footed by the GOP attack on the trans community. "The New York Times" reported that the Harris campaign could not agree on a response to they Them Trump commercial. One idea was to note that taxpayer funded transition surgery for inmates was in place when Donald Trump was president. And in the end the Harris campaign just decided to condemn negative ads without mentioning Trump's transgender attacks.

Former Philadelphia Mayor, former Pennsylvania Governor, Head of the DNC Ed Rendell called this malpractice for the Harris campaign to not have responded directly to they them ad. Here's what Kamala Harris should have said, or at least what I would say. First, that upon reflection, taxpayer funds should not be used for the transition of the incarcerated. Second, when it comes to athletics, the goal should be inclusion, but not at the expense of fairness.

According to Swimming World magazine, Lia Thomas, the trans swimmer at the University of Pennsylvania, soared from the mid-500s ranking in men's competition to one of the top ranked swimmers in women's competition. That wasn't fair.

Third, while we need to emotionally support all facing questions about gender identity, we should be cautious before embracing life altering, nonreversible medical treatment for minors who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

Fourth, and finally, that we will not sit idle while some among us, no matter the size of the population, are used as political fodder in the culture wars. When Nancy Mace demonizes the representative-elect Sarah McBride, our first concern should be the message of non-inclusion that sends to our youth who are struggling with gender identity issues in their formative years because that's bullying. Data shows they are the most susceptible to the risks of anxiety, depression and suicide.

According to a 2015 study at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, "Compared with non-transgendered peers, transgender youth were found to have an elevated risk of being diagnosed with depression, 50.6 percent to 20.6 percent suffer from anxiety, have attempted suicide and had engaged in self-harming activities without lethal intent. So Congresswoman Mace pick on someone other than the most vulnerable among us.

It's time to take politics out of the T of LGBTQ. Which brings us today's poll question at smeconish.com should public restroom policies prioritize traditional gender norms or inclusivity.

Joining me now is Zoe Tur. She is a transgender journalist, the helicopter pilot, you'll recall, who covered that infamous chase of O.J. Simpson's white Ford Bronco on the 405. Zoey, nice to have you back on the program.

You heard what I just had to say.

ZOEY TUR, TRANSGENDER JOURNALIST: Thank you, Michael.

SMERCONISH: Anything top of -- thank you. Anything top of mind that you wanted to get off your chest?

TUR: I wish I had wrote what you said on the air. It was right on target. Very good. It's true. The politics should be out of this.

And, you know, Nancy Mace, to me looks like she's doing a really great imitation of Marjorie Taylor Greene. You know, that's what she sounds like. You know, she's running around between UFO hearings and now taking on the bathroom, the great bathroom thing, as a grift to make money. It works, people. You can't go after the gays or gay marriage anymore, really, because, you know, the fundraising -- you couldn't fundraise over that any longer.

So they found themselves a transgender issue. And most people have never even met a trans person.

SMERCONISH: Zoey, at what point in your own experience, can't believe I'm asking the question, but I am. But at what point in your own experience did you begin using the ladies room and what was that like?

TUR: The first time was after sexual reassignment surgery. So, after I had gone through extensive surgery, and it was about a couple, three or two years or so before -- while I was on hormones. And that was the first time I felt compelled to use a woman's room. And I've never had a problem all around the world. And no one has said anything. And maybe because I'm seen as female.

[09:10:04]

But I can understand the trepidation and fear among some people. People are very fearful right now. And, you know, they see -- they've been told that transgender athletes are going to be taking over sports and they're going to be invading our women's, you know, only spaces. This is all fear mongering. It sells.

It's great for fundraising. And the Republican Party knew this, and they used it to their advantage. Very cynical, but it works. And then you're left with Kamala Harris and others trying to fight against, you know, a perceived threat. It's hard to fight a lie.

It's hard to fight a mean threat. It is, you know, you're already on your back feet, back foot, trying to get control of the narrative.

By that time, people, if you keep telling people the same lies over and over, within a couple of weeks, they start believing it.

SMERCONISH: Zoey, you heard me say that I'm for inclusion in athletics, but not at the expense of fairness. Are you cool with what you heard me say, which is that in the Lia Thomas case, it went too far and it wasn't fair? TUR: It wasn't fair. And there's truth in that. I know that -- I'm still -- they say if you've been on hormones for 24 months, that you're really -- you've lost a lot of your strength, a lot of your energy. I don't find that to be true. You know, I still can pick the desk up, you know?

So I have a great amount of strength. And I don't think necessarily there should be a policy of 100 percent inclusion. I think we should use common sense.

And with respect to women's areas, I think you should have gone through sexual reassignment surgery at least before you start using a women's private dressing room or shower area. I think it's just the classy thing to do.

SMERCONISH: You heard me say -- you heard me say that The Trump campaign commercial was most resonant with suburban women and young men. There is a perception among some that today a kid comes home from school and says, I'm not comfortable in my body. And by tomorrow, a transition is underway. Before you leave us, because I'm short on time, speak to the issue of what level of support and at what stage in circumstances of gender dysphoria.

TUR: Well, can you kind of give me more -- can you kind of explain that?

SMERCONISH: Yes. What I mean is, what should be the posture of society? I'll make it global relative to a minor who believes they're experiencing or has been diagnosed with, two different things, I guess, gender dysphoria. At what stage do we do something? Do we intervene?

TUR: I think you have to -- I think you monitor that child, you provide as much love as you can, and you hold off doing any -- I mean, there are really no medical treatments. They're not done until a child is approaching puberty. And the only drug, the only medication that a child would get, it's not hormones, it's something called spironolactone, and it's essentially a testosterone blocker. So what you're doing is you're stalling, you're slowing down. You know, this change in adolescence, that's all it is.

And in fact, women's -- women and men's gymnasts actually have this problem where their testosterone drops and men stay more they still look very young and women don't necessarily -- their periods stop. So there are other people like this. And all you're doing is giving somebody a testosterone blocker so they don't get the secondary sex characteristics that are nearly impossible to remove should you decide to go further with your transition later on when you're old enough to make a decision like that.

SMERCONISH: Zoey, complicated question. Maybe I shouldn't have saved it for last. We'll come back and we'll continue it. And thanks so much.

TUR: Anytime, Michael. Thank you. SMERCONISH: Hit me up on social media. I'll respond to some throughout the course of the program. Catherine (ph), what do we have? Michael, why are you so insensitive to the privacy of women and girls in bathrooms but not on the playing field?

[09:15:00]

I think that Nancy, that this was overinflated by Nancy Mace for all the reasons that I described. There are stalls in those Capitol Hill restrooms. And what will be her response when it is a trans man? Because that's what she's asked for, right? Someone biologically or at birth born male, is she going to be comfortable in that scenario?

Can't we just resolve this like adults and create bathrooms that are compatible for all? I think that's the solution. Make sure you're going to smerconish.com answering today's poll question. Ready? Should public restroom policies prioritize traditional gender norms or inclusivity?

Up ahead, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist for the Wall Street Journal, former speechwriter for President Reagan and author Peggy Noonan is here with her take on Trump's new picks, the Establishment, the Democratic Resistance. She's got a great new book of some of her best work out.

And don't forget to sign up for my newsletter at smerconish.com for which Rob Rogers drew this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:20:29]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD REAGAN, 40TH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: These are the boys of Pointe du Huc. These are the men who took the cliffs. These are the champions who helped free a continent. And these are the heroes who helped end a war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: It gives me goosebumps every time I watch it, every time I hear it. That moving speech delivered by President Ronald Reagan on the 40th anniversary of D Day, artfully written by his newest speechwriter at the time, Peggy Noonan. And just as Noonan masterfully captured the true essence of that moment, she's doing that with today's headlines in her columns at the Wall Street Journal. Which brings us to President Trump's transition picks. Pam Bondi replaced Matt Gaetz as Trump's attorney general nominee, the longtime Trump ally joining the ranks of some of his other and some controversial choices, all of them certainly offering our next guest with a wealth of content.

Pointing out in the Wall Street Journal that some of these choices could backfire, she wrote this, "We are back to the island of Misfit toys. What a mistake. Mr. Trump often confuses his own antic malice for daring, his own unseriousness for boldness. How amazing that in the rosy glow of election he will spend so much political capital and goodwill on confirmation fights he may well and certainly deserves to lose."

Joining me now is Peggy Noonan, the Pulitzer Prize winning columnist for the Journal, former speechwriter for Reagan, author of 10 books on American politics, history and culture. The very latest, an idea of America, a Collection of some of her columns. A idea, "A Certain Idea of America." Third time's the charm.

Peggy, it's great to have you back. The Pointe du Hoc speech you delivered, a commencement address at Notre Dame. And one of my favorite columns that you reprint in the book is a reference to that. What was the connection between the commencement address and the boys of Pointe du Hoc?

PEGGY NOONAN, PULITZER PRICE WINNING COLUMNIST. THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Oh, gosh. Well, I was thinking -- I met these fabulous young graduates at Notre Dame when I was there. I spent three days with all of them. And I thought, you know, they are entering life now. And we all, as we enter life and professional life and making whatever success we're trying for.

In a way, you're like one of the kids, one of the Army Rangers at Pointe du Hoc, climbing up the cliff. You are part of something corporate. You are united with your unit, and yet you are on your individual climb, you know? So you're part of something larger, but you're competing with yourself and trying to do your very best. And so we talked a bit about that and. And I put thoughts on it in the book.

SMERCONISH: So the book properly titled "A Certain Idea of America," there we go, collections --

NOONAN: You're in (inaudible).

SMERCONISH: -- of your columns. And each chapter is usually a dozen columns, except one chapter only has two, one about President Biden, one about President Trump. And I give you a great compliment for reprinting the Biden column because you ran it in 2016 and you essentially said, don't do it, you're going to lose.

NOONAN: Yes, yes.

SMERCONISH: But in retrospect, did you really get it wrong in the column? Because when you read that column, the things you said came true, just not at that time.

NOONAN: Yes. Yes. That's a very gentlemanly way to put it.

I think when you are a columnist in America and talking to a national audience, sometimes you take shots at people, sometimes you make a little fun at people. And when you get something fabulously wrong, you ought to take a shot at yourself and make a bit of fun of yourself. With the Biden part, I thought the progressive part of his party would kill him. I did not know that he would rise and join the progressive part of his policy in terms of so many of their policy choices in his first administration. And the Trump second column, that is in this two column chapter was -- I included it because I remembered a feeling of poignancy as I wrote it.

It was just before the voting in 2016. And I felt I agree with Trump on so many essential things, but I do not think he is the person or the man for this job. And so I had to come out against somebody who I agreed with on a lot of essentials. When I remembered, it broiled me a bit.

[09:25:13]

SMERCONISH: So in the Trump column, you say, my God, I'm paraphrasing, but if only he were sane. If only he were sane. And now reading it, I say to myself, but if he were sane in the way you were wishing, he probably wouldn't have won. I mean, I've had to disabuse myself of the idea that he's won despite the things that he has said. And instead, Peggy, I come to the conclusion he has won, for better or worse, because of the things that he has said.

NOONAN: Yes, I understand what you're saying, and I think I've come to some similar conclusion myself. Once in 2017, I was asked by a bunch of Republican senators in the U.S. Capitol to come and talk to them about recent events. They do that with historians and writers. So I was one once, in the spring of 2017. And Michael, I said to them, the way I figure it, now, three months into the Trump administration, I thought the only person who could have won the GOP primaries in 2016 was Donald Trump.

And that man was the only one who could have beat Hillary Clinton. And that same man is the only one who does not have the tools for successful governance. So I found it to be ironic, and we sort of had a little wrestling match about that. There was a lot of pushback, as you can imagine. But he is a large historical figure, and we have decided to go back there a second time and see how it goes.

And I think we all have --

SMERCONISH: And after the recent election, here's what you wrote. I'll put it on the screen, "As for me, I don't like the SOB. I think of a bad man who cause and bungle crises almost from day one, but he'll be the American president, and we all deserve grace. I will pray for him. Support what I think constructive, oppose what I think destructive, call it straight as I can, and take whatever follows.

As someone once said, the real story of American life is where you stand and the price you'll pay to stand there." Beautifully written. I love that. I have a final question for Peggy Noonan. I most wanted to ask you this.

What happened to the reverence for Ronald Reagan among Republicans? I thought of this during the convention. Everybody used to invoke his name. Everyone used to have him on a pedestal. He was the gold standard.

I don't hear today's conservatives other than Peggy Noonan, you know, yearn for the Reagan of our time. Why? NOONAN: I think Republicans respect Reagan as much as they ever did. I think he's still a lodestar in their minds. I said Republicans, I really mean more and more simply Americans. Reagan is there as a significant and somehow deeply moving and impressive figure. But I think some, I would say some great fans and supporters of Donald Trump feel that it might help his rise a little bit to diminish the previous great man, so maybe don't mention the previous great man so much.

But I do think, Michael, it doesn't all come down to personalities and characters. What we're always talking about in politics is policy.

SMERCONISH: The book is fun for not the least of which reason is. You can pick it up, put it down --

NOONAN: Thank you.

SMERCONISH: -- read a column or two and, you know, come back to it. And I love the whole thread that unites what you've written. Look, you know, I love your work. I tell you this all the time. Thank you, Peggy Noonan.

NOONAN: Thank you. Thanks, Michael.

SMERCONISH: Gang, what are you saying via social media? What has come in during the course of the program? Trump isn't appointing people to run departments. He's hiring them to destroy departments.

Larry Fox, elections have consequences. And if you run on a platform of wanting to be a disruptive influence, then you're not going to appoint the Rex Tillersons, you know, the sort of the company, men or women, when you're trying to carry out that mission. So, we shouldn't be surprised, I guess, is what I'm saying in terms of the collection that he's put together.

I want to remind you, go to the website at smerconish.com. Today's provocative poll question, should public restroom policies prioritize traditional gender norms or inclusivity?

Still to come, your social media reaction to my commentary and the hidden dangers of ultraprocessed foods. Why are so many additives banned in Europe but not in the U.S. RFK Jr. raising these issues? And be sure to sign up for my newsletter at smerconish.com. It's a free daily newsletter. It's worthy. You get great work from cartoonists like Steve Breen. Check that out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SMERCONISH: Lots of social media reaction this week. Here's some of it.

I am a huge critic of Smerconish but this conversation he is having in advocacy for the dignity of trans people is thoughtful and entirely well-reasoned.

[09:35:07]

Seanbenet Ramsey -- Seanbenet -- nobody wants to hear your compliment, other than me. Next.

You are avoiding the real questions she raised. Bathrooms have stalls, true. But she discussed locker rooms and showers and said that it is an assault to be nude with a member of a male sex therein. Isn't it?

But, Wesley, I'm going to parse this a bit because she introduced a bill to preclude representative-elect McBride from using the female bathroom on Capitol Hill. That is the issue. What you raised, difficult.

You know, I can't sort it all out. But in that context Sarah McBride deserves to use the restroom that Nancy Mace is in. And the hysterics and the assertion of mental illness and the invocation of, you know, penis and so forth. And then the selling of the t-shirts.

It was like the most -- I only got it wrong in one respect. I didn't think it was going to be a t-shirt. I thought it was going to be some other form of tchotchke but everything else was predictable.

And then I showed you the social media from Mace just a couple of years ago. And, you know, she was at that time saying all the right things to be inclusive, right? Protect everybody's interests, be welcoming.

My biggest concern and the reason that I chose to do this as my opening commentary today, and I decided the minute that I saw that Nancy Mace clip is it's -- for me, it's not about Nancy Mace. And it's not about Sarah McBride. Sarah McBride is a big girl who's doing just fine handling herself. It's the kids. It's the kids who just don't have it all sorted out.

The very kids that, by the way, you heard me say, let's not do something irreversible while they're minors. You also heard me say that I think that certain of the athletic competition has become unfair. I want to be inclusive, but when it's now not fair I'm sorry to the trans community, they can't participate at that level.

So, mine is a very nuanced and practical approach. But what caused me to want to address this today is just the thinking of the kids who are already subject to a higher risk of anxiety, depression and suicide. And when the community at large becomes political fodder that disgusts me. Because you're jeopardizing the mental and physical well-being of kids trying to figure it out with their parents and with mental health professionals. So, give them some slack.

Still to come, from artificial dyes to hidden additives, your holiday meal may be packing more than flavor. "New York Times" bestselling author of "Salt Sugar Fat" Michael Moss breaks it all down, how ultra processed foods are affecting your health.

Don't forget vote on today's poll question at Smerconish.com. Should public restroom policies prioritize traditional gender norms or inclusivity? While you're there, please sign up for my free and worthy daily newsletter. Jack Ohman is a Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist. Here's something that he drew for my newsletter.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:42:28]

SMERCONISH: As you plan your Thanksgiving menu, it might be worth taking a second look at how much of your holiday spread comes from the packaged aisles of the grocery store. For all the controversy surrounding his views on vaccines, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Donald Trump's choice to lead Health and Human Services, seems to have really struck a chord on the dangers of highly processed foods.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR. (I), FORMER 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What they're ignoring is a food supply that's loaded with high fructose corn syrup and seed oils, and hundreds of artificial additives and flavors, and processed carbohydrates that don't exist in nature and that are banned in other countries.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: Just take a look at this picture of Canadian versus American Froot Loops. By the way, the latter are in my cupboard. I admit it. Comes from the "Wall Street Journal."

The ones on the left are sold in Canada, are made with natural dye. The U.S. version on the right with artificial dye.

And new CNN reporting is showing how ubiquitous these artificial and ultraprocessed foods are. Up to 70 percent of the American public has them in their diet, and they can impact everything from lifespan to your mood.

Author Michael Moss is just the man to help us explain and understand this. He's a Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative reporter and the author of "The New York Times" bestseller "Salt Sugar Fat" which covers this very subject, and more recently "Hooked" which explores free will and addiction.

Michael, nice to see you again. Relative to free will big food has our number, right? I mean, men and women in lab coats have figured out 56 gradations of different types of sugar. It has become an unfair fight.

MICHAEL MOSS, AUTHOR OF "SALT SUGAR FAT": It's incredible science and marketing and advertising that they use to sort of get inside our heads and stay there when we're making food decisions.

And I have to say, Michael, watching your intro -- I mean, I'm having flashbacks. I mean, it was 16 years ago that a certain first lady named Michelle came into the White House and wanted to kind of improve school lunches just a little bit. And by the way, got excoriated from certain circles. And here we have President Trump referring to my grocery store as the industrial food complex, and Mr. Kennedy wanting to take colors out of the breakfast cereal.

And maybe if he had his druthers, get us to not use Ozempic to sort of, you know, fix this problem we have with big food. It's kind of incredible but --

SMERCONISH: I remember --

MOSS: -- you know, I also realized that -- I also realized that this is not kind of a political issue. I mean, people on all sides of the spectrum are increasingly concerned about the trouble that big food is causing us.

[09:45:02]

SMERCONISH: I remember you once telling me, stay out of the middle of the grocery store. Stay on the periphery and you won't get hurt. Right? Explain that.

MOSS: Yes, that's an age old, you know, piece of advice. Probably even going back to our parents, but increasingly so. So, most of the stuff in the middle of the store has added sugar. These -- you know, many of the products, there's preservatives and dyes that people are concerned about. And the more sort of whole foods that -- of course, the fruits and vegetables are typically on the perimeter of the store and you're safer generally shopping there.

SMERCONISH: Michael, can't they use all of the technology -- the technology that allowed them to find the bliss point, as you described for soda? Can't they use all that thinking and come up with food that's as good as, tasting wise, the ultraprocessed stuff, but is actually healthier for us? When do we get there?

MOSS: Boy, you would wish for that, right? But look time and again the industry does what it's so good at doing, which is kind of this race to the bottom of our health, looking for the least cost formulas for their food. Right?

And so, you know -- and the government is helpless in the face of that. I mean, look, you know, the government puts vegetable gardens in the schools. And what does the industry do? They spend $2 billion a year advertising junk to kids.

Government tells us to eat more vegetables. What does the industry do? They plant most of the farm land in corn syrup. And the surgeon general, going way back to 1988, was warning us about the surging obesity in this country which, by the way, the financial cost is now estimated to be as high as $1.7 trillion.

And what did the food industry do in response to that? They marched around the store, adding sugar to where it's now in two thirds of the products in the center part of the store you refer to.

SMERCONISH: Where do you see this going if, in fact, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. becomes the secretary of Health and Human Services?

MOSS: I mean, he's going to have a really tough fight. Not only kind of with constituents who might, you know, harken back to the Michelle Obama days and cry nanny state if he's actually going to force some changes onto people. But also, these food companies, then all they have to do is whisper, you're going to increase food prices. I would think for the Trump administration to get really scared of affecting any meaningful reforms or change in big food.

SMERCONISH: Final question. Maybe its related, maybe not. Why is there so much choice in the grocery store? Why do my Wheat Thins come in so many varieties? Why are there such different levels of pulp -- who doesn't want pulp, by the way? But orange juice has become confusing.

We talked about processed foods, Cap'n Crunch, there are so many different gradations now of Cap'n Crunch. Why?

MOSS: Yes, that's a play for one of our deepest biological instincts in which we love variety. It's why you have 200 brands of sugary starch in the cereal aisle. It goes back to -- all the way back to hunter-gatherer days when variety was a really good thing for us to look for, thinking that we could get more nutrients that way. And that's one of the cunning ways that the food industry goes after us, is tapping those deep emotional instincts that we have.

SMERCONISH: Your books are excellent. Michael Moss, you own this subject. I've read them and I encourage others to do likewise if they're interested in this subject. And we all should be. Thank you, sir.

MOSS: You're too kind Michael. Thanks for having me.

SMERCONISH: Everybody still -- thank you. Everybody still has time to answer today's poll question at Smerconish.com. Should public restroom policies prioritize -- prioritize traditional gender norms or inclusivity? Subscribe to the newsletter when you're there voting. You're going to get exclusive editorial cartoons. Scott Stantis drew this for us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:53:37]

SMERCONISH: So, there's the voting, so far, in today's poll question at Smerconish.com. Just a tick under 30,000. Should public restroom policies prioritize traditional gender norms or inclusivity?

Interesting, inclusivity carries at 57 percent to 43. If you haven't voted, go to Smerconish.com. We'll leave it up for the remainder of the day, and you can cast your ballot. Here's some of the social media reaction that has come in during the course of today's program.

Nancy Mace is just jumping on this issue for attention as she flips back and forth on issues.

Could be gerrymandering that has something to do with it. Maybe she was more inclusive when she said what she said a couple of years ago, as compared to what she's saying today. All I know is she's fund raising as a result of it. And I'm worried about the collateral damage to kids who are wrestling with some of these issues.

More social media reaction. You can find me, by the way, on all the social media platforms. Trump appointing loyalists simply means that he is putting folks in place that he is confident will carry out his agenda. That agenda is being supported by an overwhelming mandate from the American people and he should be given the chance to appoint the people who provided the highest possibility of that agenda --

Ben, I'll say it more simply. Elections have consequences. And yes, he's with -- you know, unless -- unless they go the way of Matt Gaetz. He's got a right to have around him the team of his choice. And we will judge everything that he does after he takes office. But I'm -- I'm willing to give him a shot.

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Absolutely respectful of the outcome of the election. And the people have spoken. I get it. One more if I have time and I think that I do. What do we have?

I remember when all the top cereals reduced their sugar content. I survived. But more importantly, shouldn't people have the choice?

Yes, we should definitely have the choice. But I'd like to have healthy choices. I'd like to have healthy -- let me go over it this way.

In my cabinet, I'm like Jerry Seinfeld. I never grew out of the cereal era of my life. Hand to God, this morning started with Cap'n Crunch, and Froot Loops were among my choices. And something else? Apple Jacks. I've always loved Apple Jacks. If they could only make it taste as good as those three and be healthier for me, I'd be on board.

Have a wonderful Thanksgiving and I will see you in a week.

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