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CNN Saturday Morning News

McVeigh's Legal Options Remain Somewhat Open

Aired May 12, 2001 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: The Oklahoma City bombing was murder on a massive scale, 168 men, women and children died and the psyche of the nation was scarred. After six years and millions of dollars spent prosecuting the crime, the government's case could -- and we emphasize could -- be in jeopardy.

Much depends on how convicted bomber Timothy McVeigh and his lawyers respond to the disclosure that the FBI failed to turn over thousands of pages of documents to both defense and prosecution. That's still in limbo.

For what we know for sure, it's that Timothy McVeigh's execution date, originally set for next Wednesday, has been pushed back to June 11th while attorneys on both sides try to sort out the foul up. CNN correspondents are pursuing this developing story across the country with Bob Franken in Terra Haute, Gary Tuchman, CNN in Oklahoma City and Gina London in Denver.

We begin with Bob Franken in Terra Haute, Indiana, where McVeigh sits on death row -- good morning, Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

And he is sitting now and waiting, and according to his lawyer he is "distressed" that the plans were interrupted, that people who McVeigh has characterized as having concerns about had come to be at peace with this, including him, including members of his family, he even said the media and, of course, the families of the victims, according to his lawyer.

He's distressed but the lawyer says they don't know exactly what they're going to do. McVeigh, of course, had decided not to oppose his execution. But now you have the thousands of pages of documents that they have to go through and there will have to be a decision McVeigh is going to have to make, says his lawyer, whether he will, in fact, pursue appeals and, in fact, try and stop the execution that he had decided not to interfere with.

Now, as far as the reverberations of this, there has been a huge amount of criticism about the FBI, which has been led by McVeigh's attorney, Robert Nigh.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ROBERT NIGH, MCVEIGH ATTORNEY: We were told six years ago that we had every document that should have been produced in the context of discovery and obviously that was not the case. And the degree of confidence that you can have in the representation continues to diminish.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: Now, Nigh, the attorney, met with McVeigh for over five hours here at Terra Haute yesterday. Everything is on hold. Next week, says the warden, he will inform McVeigh of the official next date for an execution. We're told its June 11. There is a strong possibility, Kyra, that that could be extended -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, Bob Franken, thank you very much -- Miles?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: News of the execution delay has hit hardest in Oklahoma City, perhaps, where the site of the Murrah Federal Building is now a memorial to the dead.

CNN's Gary Tuchman is there -- good morning, Gary.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, to you, Miles.

If you would have stood here before April 19, 1995, behind me you would have seen the Murrah Federal Building. Now it's a memorial to the victims, a reminder of the bomb carried out by Timothy McVeigh six years ago. It's six years and one month ago, the bombing of the federal building.

Now this Wednesday, nearly 300 people were planning on going in white vans to a prison facility near the Oklahoma City airport to watch the execution of Timothy McVeigh on closed circuit television. Another 10 people were going to watch it in person. And one of those people who was going to watch it in person in Indiana is with us right now. His name is Paul Howell. Paul Howell's daughter was Karen Shephard (ph). She was 27 years old. She had two daughters. She died in the Oklahoma City bombing.

PAUL HOWELL, FATHER OF BOMBING VICTIM: Yes, sir.

TUCHMAN: Thank you for joining us.

HOWELL: Thank you.

TUCHMAN: Were you shocked by all of this?

HOWELL: We're really shocked pretty heavy about this thing. It's been pretty devastating for everybody, my family. We've had to make a lot of drastic changes, trying to raise grandkids, the whole bit. So yeah, it's changed our whole lives.

TUCHMAN: Well, when were you supposed to leave for Terra Haute?

HOWELL: I was scheduled to leave Tuesday morning and we would fly down there and then come back on the 16th.

TUCHMAN: You won a lottery to get this spot to see this person, right?

HOWELL: That's right.

TUCHMAN: Are you concerned that in any way, shape or form the possibility might exist that this execution won't be carried out?

HOWELL: No. There's no way in the world that this will happen. He's already admitted that he's guilty. We've watched all the trial, the whole bit. He's guilty. There is no way it could be stopped all the way. It could be, how would you say, delayed a little bit more, but that's about it.

TUCHMAN: Are you angry with the FBI?

HOWELL: No, I'm a little dissatisfied with them. It's not, angry is not the word. I've been in the government most of my life. I can understand things get messed up a little bit but...

TUCHMAN: You were in the military?

HOWELL: Yes, sir. The thing about it is is, you know, there was a lot of concern about where this stuff came from and the whole bit. And so why six years after the bombing did they find this stuff, six days before the execution? It just seems like, you know, there was some, a little bit of plot there maybe to try to hurt some people.

TUCHMAN: A final question for you, sir. Why is this execution so important to you?

HOWELL: This execution is important to me because my, I lost my daughter with about 35 or 40 other friends in that building. I have not been able to see the man face to face and I want to do that. I think I need to do that, to see him in the face and see if there's any kind of expression for me.

TUCHMAN: Paul, thank you for talking to us.

HOWELL: Thank you very much.

TUCHMAN: We appreciate your time.

The people here, the family members of the victims and the survivors have gone through many phases. They've gone through the bombing. They've gone through the search for the perpetrators. They've gone through the implosion. They've gone through the trial of Timothy McVeigh, of Terry Nichols and now they're going through this delay. And all this happened six springs ago -- Miles, back to you.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Gary Tuchman in Oklahoma City -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Now to the site of the federal trial against McVeigh, Denver, Colorado.

CNN's Gina London has the reaction from there -- hi, Gina.

GINA LONDON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, good morning, Kyra.

Well, this here in Denver is the site of one of Timothy McVeigh's two attorneys' offices. Nathan Chambers has his offices here in Denver and it is in those offices on Thursday morning where he suddenly received that big box from the FBI that contained those 500 documents, more than 3,000 pages of what are referred to as the FBI 302s, the formal witness statements.

Now, of course, his team has a lot more time to go through and carefully examine these and also develop their strategy but they also have to make certain that they are conferring regularly with their client, Timothy McVeigh, and as Bob Franken just said a moment ago, that is where the other attorney, Robert Nigh of Tulsa -- he is in Terra Haute and he has, of course, been talking to Tim McVeigh about how he suddenly has received at least 26 more days of life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIGH: Mr. McVeigh had made the mental and psychological preparations for death. He had said his good-byes to his family and to his friends. He is distressed that he has had to put these people that he cares about through this process and may only have to put them through it again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LONDON: And now here in Denver, the legal community, Kyra, has been talking about some of the options that the defense attorneys may have before them. One, of course, would be to review the documents and go ahead and agree to the June 11 date set by the attorney general for McVeigh's execution. Another would be to ask for a stay or an additional delay of the execution to continue examining them. And there is also a very remote but yet a real possibility that something in these 302s could result in them appealing here to the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals in Judge Richard Matsch's chambers and ask for a new trial -- Kyra? Miles?

PHILLIPS: All right, Gina London, thank you. Timothy McVeigh's father says learning of the FBI's mishandling of the case and the subsequent delay in the execution was about as bad as learning that his son was the Oklahoma City bomber.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM MCVEIGH, TIM MCVEIGH'S FATHER: I just try to take things one day at a time. Like I would have never dreamed yesterday that I'd have a day like today. But that's the way things have gone for six years and that's the way it's going to be until it's over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: The prosecution was also blind-sided by the FBI's disclosure. Federal attorneys are poring through the documents preparing for whatever action the defense might take. For more on this, we go to the man who helped prosecute both McVeigh and co-conspirator Terry Nichols, Larry Mackey. He joins us from Indianapolis. Mr. Mackey, thanks for being with us.

LARRY MACKEY, FORMER MCVEIGH PROSECUTOR: Good morning.

O'BRIEN: Help us understand what's ahead right now. First of all, is there any sort of deadline for the defense attorneys to file any sort of motions?

MACKEY: Well, there really isn't. The attorney general did the right thing yesterday by postponing the execution date to give everyone, including McVeigh's lawyers, sufficient time to evaluate the evidence, newly discovered evidence. And from what I understand, it is so immaterial to the questions of guilt and innocence that I think in short order, well before June 11, all of us will have reassurances that the person who committed this horrible crime is, indeed, guilty and deserves the punishment previously imposed.

O'BRIEN: There is a tremendous volume of documentation out there that hasn't been seen by the defense attorneys. They do have the right to go through it. How can you be certain they can do it in 30 days time?

MACKEY: Well, I know the nature of the evidence. It, in great measure, is simply more of what they've seen before, tenfold, a hundred fold perhaps. Recall, this was the largest criminal investigation ever undertaken by the FBI. So the prospect that a tiny, tiny fraction, and, indeed, that is all this is, was lately discovered is not implausible. But nonetheless it is important for them to have time to review it.

Most of that information, as I understand it, is largely reports of people who spotted, who they thought, John Doe Number Two. And we know from Timothy McVeigh's book and his own confession he acted alone in killing 168 people on April 19, 1995.

O'BRIEN: So, but, of course, the defense can't say that categorically, that it is not relevant or not germane, unless they go through all those documents. And just logistically, how much work lies ahead for that team?

MACKEY: Well, again, after spending three years on the case and plodding through tens and thousands of pieces of paper, my assurances to myself and to the Department of Justice lawyers is that is a task that can be easily managed in 30 days. Now, indeed, maybe at the end of their review, they want more time. That's something they can take up with the attorney general.

At the end of the day, what's important to him is that the process be allowed to run its course in fairness to McVeigh's defense. But all of us should keep in mind that the real impact of yesterday's announcement was not on Tim McVeigh and his personal reaction, but on the people in Oklahoma City. They have been through so much, starting with the morning of April 19 when, without any plans to say good-bye, loved ones lost 168 husbands, children, mothers, etc. O'BRIEN: Mr. Mackey, a lot of those people in Oklahoma City and elsewhere are scratching their heads wondering how this could possibly happen. The FBI, our vaunted federal policy agency, looking like keystone cops here. Based on your dealings with them throughout this prosecution, is it surprising to you, first of all, or is it indicative of some slipshod investigative tactics?

MACKEY: It's totally surprising. I mean the FBI acted with great honor and professionalism throughout this case. Remember that this created the world's largest crime scene on April 19, and in 48 hours that same FBI had captured and held in custody the two men later convicted of this crime.

So to look six years later and bring great criticism on the missing 3,000 documents, I think, misses the point here. There is...

O'BRIEN: Well, but six...

MACKEY: There is, indeed, certainly, indeed, a response by the FBI that includes disappointment and embarrassment and I think the attorney general did the right thing by calling for an investigation to see how it was that this could have happened.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Mackey, though, a lot of people would tell you that's precisely the point, that six years later is when this is just coming to light. Why now? Why are we just hearing about this now?

MACKEY: Well, I think we know the answer to that. The answer is that in the course of archiving those materials, agencies throughout the -- or offices throughout the country began a final look for all of the Oklahoma City evidence and thus the discovery. It should not have happened. It's unfortunate. It's a disappointment. There was a system in place to prevent such a thing. It clearly did not take care of the matter entirely.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Mackey, do you get the sense that this delay in some way plays into Mr. McVeigh's hand in the sense that it allows him to spread his philosophy, if you will?

MACKEY: Oh, not at all. I mean this mistake is of the government's making. The people in the FBI would say so. This had nothing to do with Tim McVeigh orchestrating these series of events, not at all.

O'BRIEN: All right, thank you very much, Larry Mackey, former prosecutor involved in the McVeigh and Nichols cases.

MACKEY: All right.

O'BRIEN: We appreciate you joining us on CNN SATURDAY MORNING.

MACKEY: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Kyra?

PHILLIPS: Well, the delay in the McVeigh execution is not only dominating the news this week, but has devastated the friends and families who lost someone they loved.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARSHA KIGHT, LOST DAUGHTER: I felt like I was kicked in the stomach. Even though I wanted Tim McVeigh to spend the rest of his life in prison, I was still emotionally preparing myself for this execution and I was also feeling the anguish that the people back in Oklahoma City must be feeling, anticipating that coming execution and all of a sudden this information is revealed. It was devastating.

AREN ALMON KOK, LOST DAUGHTER: Well, I was definitely surprised, disappointed, actually, when I heard of the news. We've been preparing ourselves, my husband and I, to go to the execution. That was not going to be an easy thing to watch somebody to be put to death. So, I was definitely disappointed in the judicial system itself.

QUESTION: What do you think McVeigh's reaction was when he heard the news?

STEPHEN JONES, FORMER MCVEIGH ATTORNEY: Probably a combination of satisfaction at the government's embarrassment and a reexamination of his own wishes with respect to the disposition of the case against him.

GORE VIDAL, PICKED TO WITNESS EXECUTION: What we're seeing going on is a government that is out of control. It's a government that is running amok.

REP. ASA HUTCHINSON (R), ARKANSAS: Terrorism is a real problem in America and the FBI has a responsibility to protect us and to pursue these cases. They do a good job. There's great agents out there. What happened here is unacceptable and we need to make sure we get to the bottom of it.

KIGHT: The day that Frankie was murdered by Tim McVeigh, a part of me left with my daughter. But a part of her still remains with me. The only closure will be on McVeigh's life, when he is executed, that it will not bring closure for me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: And time now to bring us your questions and comments on the McVeigh story. We'll put your thoughts and queries on the air next hour. The e-mail address is wam@cnn.com.

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