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CNN Saturday Morning News

Interview With Ken Lieberthal

Aired October 20, 2001 - 11:16   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: Talking more about President Bush, he had no experience in the world stage when he became president, but the events of September 11 have pushed him front and center. Now at the APEC Summit, he is engaging the Chinese in a way unforeseen before the terrorism attacks.

How is he doing? Ken Lieberthal served as President Clinton's national security counsel. Now, he's a specialist on U.S.-Sino relations at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.

Thank you, sir, for joining us this morning.

KEN LIEBERTHAL, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: It's a pleasure to be here, Martin.

SAVIDGE: Let me ask you this: First of all, a number of Americans have been surprised by the vocalness of China in supporting the United States. What has been your feeling, obviously, knowing that country well?

Actually, I was not surprised that they strongly supported the United States, for two reasons. One, China has a good record in being against international terrorism. In Central Asia, where we're all now focused, they in fact, for several years, have been strongly encouraging cooperation among the former Soviet republics of Central Asia, Russia and China to try to combat terrorism. They recently set up a counterterrorism center there, as a matter of fact.

Secondly, the Chinese have been looking for a way to develop a good cooperative relationship with the incoming Bush administration. I think when they saw the tragedy of September 11, they also saw in that an area where the U.S. and China, in the security area, would see basically eye to eye, and could foster some cooperative ties.

SAVIDGE: China has had its own problems with terrorism, has it not?

LIEBERTHAL: Yes, they have. It has been sporadic, low-level, focused in their northwest, although there was one bomb in a bus in Beijing, and that was a few years ago. The terrorism in China is Muslim-based. They have been very concerned about terrorists who have been at training camps in Pakistan and elsewhere, slipped across the border in northwest China and caused trouble. They see that as a problem that could easily grow in the future, and they're very anxious to stamp it out.

SAVIDGE: Obviously when President Bush had his first experience with China earlier this year, that being the spy plane, this a whole different scenario now. And you mentioned that China and the United States -- China anxious to get back in good graces.

China is also, though, cautioning, apparently at this APEC Summit, that the ground battle, or the military conflict, should not go on too long.

LIEBERTHAL: You know, China's closest ally in the region is Pakistan. And the Chinese are very concerned, as we are, that the Pakistani government may prove fragile. If Pakistan should fall apart, there is a lot of nuclear expertise, nuclear material, and a few nuclear bombs in that territory.

The Chinese are very worried that if the U.S. overplays its hand in Afghanistan, it will stoke up so much opposition within the Muslim population in Pakistan that the government may fall, and the place may become chaotic, with dire consequences.

So I think their advice on the level of force to use is sincere advice. It may or may not be the right advice. We'll have to see how all of this unfolds. As of now, they're willing to go along with us; and I hope, obviously, with everyone else, that we are able to bring this to a conclusion without seeing Pakistan come unraveled in the process.

SAVIDGE: And what do you think the future is, in light of all of this, between the United States and China? It seems to have a beneficial short-term impact. Do you think the long-term will be the same?

LIEBERTHAL: I think it's too early to tell about the long-term impact. We may look back five years from now and say, this was a real turning point. This administration came into office seeing China as a competitor, a likely enemy of the future. There are still many in the administration who hold that view. But we now have an opportunity for really fairly wide-ranging cooperation.

To me, one of the important dimensions of the president's trip to China came out of what he said in his private remarks at the U.S. Consulate in Shanghai, where he met all of the foreign service officers there. And he commented there that as he drove around Shanghai, the terms he used were what he saw was mind boggling. It was incredible. It left him amazed. It shows the creativity of the Chinese people, and he anticipated that we have a lot of things we'll be able to do together with them.

So that kind of experience over there actually can make a real difference in how we conduct our China policy, and we'll have to see whether this is the beginning of a turnaround or, in fact, looking back was a high point that then eventually unraveled over other intractable issues.

SAVIDGE: Ken Lieberthal, he's a specialist with U.S.-Sino relations at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. Thanks for coming in and joining us this Saturday morning.

LIEBERTHAL: Thank you.

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