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CNN Saturday Morning News
Interview With Meyrav Wurmser, Mark Perry
Aired December 08, 2001 - 11:18 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Israel launched more air strikes against Palestinian targets today. Helicopter gunships struck a security building in Gaza; no injuries reported.
Israel says it was in retaliation for mortar attacks on Jewish settlements. The air strikes stress Israel's demand that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat do more to crack down on militants.
CNN's Rula Amin reports Arafat is under tremendous pressure from within and without.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Different Palestinian groups, different ages, all took to the streets; their defiant message to Arafat: the intifada will continue.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You cannot suppress freedom of speech. He cannot suppress democratic rights. And if Israel wants him to become a dictator, then this is counterproductive.
AMIN: Arafat is under enormous pressure to crack down on Palestinian militants, especially Islamic Jihad and Hamas, the group behind the recent deadly string of suicide bombings in Jerusalem.
The U.S. and Israel want Arafat to arrest the militants, dismantle their organizations, collect their weapons and stop incitement. A test, says Washington, to his commitment to the war on terrorism.
The U.S. special envoy even gave Arafat a list of whom they want arrested.
YASSER ARAFAT, PRESIDENT, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY (through translator): I didn't get any list, only the list from General Anthony Zinni that contained 33 names. I arrested seven. By chance, we found we had already arrested seven people. But until now we have arrested half of the people on the list, which means we have arrested 10 more, which means we have arrested 17 of the 33 people named.
AMIN: Arafat has promised he will deliver, but he's facing an opposing pressure from the Palestinian street not to.
"He has to decide. Either he is with the people or he is in America's pocket," says this man.
This march was a challenge for both the Authority and the protesters. A confrontation was averted when a local Hamas leader called on the marchers to stop halfway before they met head-on with police.
"National Unity is our shield against our common enemy, the occupation" the Hamas leader said.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Any decision from the Authority to stop the intifada and arrest the freedom fighters will be resisted by the people. It's a red line that should not be crossed.
AMIN (on camera): The United States and Israel want Yasser Arafat to prove that he wants to stop Palestinian attacks against Israelis, that he's able to, and that he will. On the other hand, the Palestinian people want to know if Yasser Arafat is going to get anything in return for his crackdown on parts of his population.
Rula Amin, CNN, Ramallah, on the West Bank.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: And today, seven Palestinian demonstrators were injured in new clashes with Israeli troops. Many question whether Arafat can make good on his promise to reign in Palestinian militants.
Joining me from Washington to discuss the power of the Palestinian leader is Mark Perry, Washington correspondent for the "Palestine Report," and Meyrav Wurmser of the Hudson Institute.
Thank you very much, both of you, for being with me.
MEYRAV WURMSER, HUDSON INSTITUTE: Thank you.
MARK PERRY, "PALESTINE REPORT": Pleasure.
O'BRIEN: Ms. Wurmser, let me begin with you. Is it time for Mr. Arafat to go?
WURMSER: Well yes, I think it is. In a lot of ways, Hamas is Arafat without the deception. Until now, Arafat has broken most of his promises, has not controlled the violence of the Islamic Jihad and the Hamas, nor of his own Fatah groups that have been committing many of the terrorist attacks that have recently been committed in Israel.
If he can not control the violence, he's useless. If he wouldn't want to do it, then he's not a real peace partner. At any rate, he's not, he should not stay as the leader of the Palestinian Authority.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Perry, same question to you.
PERRY: Well the question was asked originally by Israeli leaders over the past month, and it's an incendiary and inflammatory question. It's not for them to say or for us to say or for the U.S. government to say whether Arafat should stay as leader of the Palestinian people. He's a democratically elected president in an internationally- monitored election. He serves at the behest of the Palestinian people. It's up to them whether he stays or goes.
Right now, the Palestinian leadership says that he's absolutely indispensable to the peace process. He has been previously. He should stay as leader of the Palestinian people until they decide otherwise.
O'BRIEN: Ms. Wurmser, what do you say to that? The Palestinian people have chosen Chairman Arafat to lead them and if he were to leave, or perhaps the Palestinian Authority in and of itself would crumble, and that would not be good for any shred of the peace process to resume?
WURMSER: First I doubt the Palestinian Authority would crumble. Cemeteries are full of indispensable men. Second of all, to the point that Arafat has been democratically elected, yes he has been, but the elections in the Palestinian Authority are four years overdue now. So he's not exactly a democratic leader.
Palestinian human rights groups have been complaining about his human rights abuses, about his corruption, about the extent to which they feel oppressed, and many Palestinians do by this regime of Mr. Arafat.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Perry, let's talk for a moment, taking aside the issue as to whether people from the outside should be having this discussion. The fact remains that Mr. Arafat, like all of us, is mortal and is advancing in years.
Let's take a look ahead to the inevitability of some sort of succession, sooner or later. How will that change things in the Middle East? Is there a good second tier there that you see?
PERRY: I think there is a good second tier. Arafat, however, is a man of great stature. It's going to be difficult to replace him. There are a number of leaders who, if Arafat were to leave of his own volition or die in office or resign, or if there were a succession, Abu Mazin would probably run for President.
Abu Ala, who's head of the legislature, would run. Saeb Erakat, Hanan Ashrawi might run. Mohammed Dahlan in Gaza is a very strong and well-respected leader. I think there's a dark horse choice of Salah Tamari in Bethlehem, although he's told me he wants to remain in the legislature.
They have a senior leadership cadre that is well respected, very capable, very intelligent, and known to the Americans and the Israelis, who could succeed Arafat, were that to happen. But I don't think it's going to happen any time soon. I certainly hope that Israel and the United States don't decide that they should attack a democratically elected leader.
O'BRIEN: Ms. Wurmser, as you listen to that list of possible successors, whatever the reason for Mr. Arafat leaving office, do you see any of those as being more or less helpful to the peace process?
WURMSER: Well the question that we have to ask ourselves time and again is to which extent has the PA, the leadership group around Arafat in the Authority and the PLO itself have really changed course.
It seems that the problem is greater than just Arafat's demand. It seems that it relates to a leadership group which has not made the switch to making peace with Israel.
Let me just give you an example. The Palestinian Authority new textbooks, those that were changed after Israel complained about incitement -- I'm just going to quote from a sixth grade new textbook like that, says things like "the noble soul has but two goals: martyrdom and the desire for martyrdom."
This is something that is not just Arafat. This is something that has to do with his leadership group. The question is: Do we want to continue to deal with the PLO and with the PA as the country stands?
O'BRIEN: Ms. Wurmser, we are running a little bit out of time here. I'd just like to ask you: Do you think it should be Israel's stance or position to seek the oust or the toppling of Arafat as leader of the Authority?
WURMSER: Well at this point, Arafat is damaging both his own people and to (sic) Israel. Israel has got to think what is within its own interests and what serves its interest of providing security to its people best.
Israel certainly went all out in both Camp David and Taba in proposing peace to the Palestinians. And it was rejected by Arafat and his leadership group. The question is: What next; and can you, indeed, deal with the Authority further on?
O'BRIEN: Mr. Perry, I don't think she directly answered my question, but if it is, in fact, the stated goal of Israel to topple Mr. Arafat, what would the consequences be of that?
PERRY: Chaos, anarchy; and we're seeing some of that emerge now. He's very isolated. Palestinians, by the way, are asking the same question. They're asking whether Ariel Sharon can be a partner for peace.
You have to understand in the very recent past, Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat made an alliance for peace and it worked very well. We've had a change of government in Israel, and the strategy of the last year has been very destructive.
O'BRIEN: Mark Perry with the "Palestine Report." Meyrav Wurmser with the Hudson Institute, thank you both for being with us, and sharing your insights on this debate over the future of the Palestinian Authority and Yasser Arafat. Thank you.
PERRY: Thank you.
WURMSER: Thank you.
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