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CNN Saturday Morning News

Interview With Bernard Haykel, Yossef Bodansky

Aired December 15, 2001 - 08:24   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Reaction still coming in from around the world to that Osama bin Laden videotape, the one where he brags about the attacks of 9/11 and says they exceeded his expectations and his hopes.

Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the U.S. says the tape, "displays the cruel and inhumane face of a murderous criminal." Others, though, in the Muslim world say that tape proves nothing and a university professor in Egypt says the U.S. should release details of how it got that tape. Some believe it is a fraud and a fake.

Let's talk more about the videotape. With us now this morning, Bernard Haykel of New York University with us this morning. Professor, good morning to you.

BERNARD HAYKEL, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: Good morning.

HEMMER: He has written several books on Islamic movements. His forthcoming book is entitled "Islam and The State In Yemen." And Yossef Bodansky, author of "Bin Laden: The Man Who Declared War On America" with us live as well. Sir, good morning to you, Mr. Bodansky. Nice to see you.

YOSSEF BODANSKY, AUTHOR, "BIN LADEN": Good morning.

HEMMER: We've had three days, gentlemen, to think about this and react to it. I'm wondering, professor, on day three right now is your reaction the same? Has it been hardened? Has it been changed in any way?

HAYKEL: I was absolutely convinced once I saw it that it was authentic. The language, the idioms, the expressions, the references, the poetry, it all rings true to bin Laden and to the movement that he represents.

HEMMER: Mr. Bodansky, I was watching this and he was so comfortable and so casual with that camera in the room, it struck me the possibility that given that observation, there might be a whole lot more videotapes out there. Is that a possibility, Mr. Bodansky?

BODANSKY: Hopefully, but this video was being produced by a follower of the sheikh that was with him, Sheikh Suleiman, and it was intended originally to be taken back to Saudi Arabia by the Sheikh to demonstrate that he has met the great leader and that he is in good terms with him, as demonstrated in a casual conversation, and to help further the bin Laden cause back in Saudi Arabia.

Of course, because of the deterioration of the situation in Afghanistan, the tape was abandoned and eventually reached us.

However, I would say one thing about bin Laden himself, he was very guarded in what he said. The key...

HEMMER: You thought so?

BODANSKY: Yes. The key issues like whether he did or did not give the order, he danced around it and some of his phraseology was vague, including the we as opposed to I. He did not take responsibility. He did not reveal specific issues, at least in the audible part of it, which is very characteristic of him. He usually dances around it, the key morsels.

HEMMER: Does that suggest anything, Mr. Bodansky?

BODANSKY: Yes, that he is a very responsible man as a commander, that even in the moment he knew that, even in conversation with people very, very close to him he would keep the key secrets, the key vital element of the way he does business, to himself.

HEMMER: That's an interesting observation.

Professor Haykel, do you agree with that? Some people say it shows the arrogance and the ignorance more of bin Laden.

HAYKEL: I mean I tend to think that he incriminated himself and, you know, the difference between I, you know, I and we in Arabic is not that important. He said that he knew about the attack five days before it happened, that he had made calculations about the damage that would be caused based on his experience in construction. He gave you details about what the suicide, the hijackers knew or did not know.

It's, I mean, the evidence is absolutely incontrovertible that he planned, he was part of the whole thing and he was the mastermind of the whole attack.

HEMMER: I want to move our conversation overseas and the impact in the Muslim world. And we know today that the U.S. now, the government is sending out numerous videotapes to various embassies overseas. The translations in Arabic, subtitles as well as the Arabic language being distributed.

Professor, do you believe that this effort at any point will start changing minds of those who do not believe it at this point?

HAYKEL: I think it will change the minds of some. I mean there will be people in the Middle East, large numbers of people, who will not be convinced, in large part because they are suspicious of anything the United States does, even the resentment they feel about U.S. foreign policies.

There is a very small group who are followers of bin Laden, people called selafies (ph), who see no problem with what he said. They, in fact, approved of the attacks in the first place. And then there is a group, I would say maybe 50 percent of the population, the fence sitters, who might be convinced and I think if they're honest and true to themselves, will be convinced that he is a criminal murderer.

HEMMER: Mr. Bodansky, I want to give the last word to you. Does it really matter overseas at this point if you cannot change minds and convince people? Does it truly have an impact?

BODANSKY: Well, the power of the Arab street is extremely important for body politics of the Arab world. I would just add to the previous comment, the most important impact of the tape in Arabic with Arabic subtitles, Arabic text, will be the impact on the elites. To what extent they will be able to stay out of the war against terrorism, of cooperation with the United States in sharing intelligence, sharing the knowledge of what their citizens and what's happening on their countries in support of the international terrorist movement.

And I think that once faced with this tape, that these governments will have to cooperate more.

HEMMER: Well, you mentioned Saudi Arabia. Certainly it's something we'd talk a whole lot more. We're out of time.

Bernard Haykel, a professor with us in New York, and Yossef Bodansky. Thank you, sir. Appreciate your time for both gentlemen.

HAYKEL: Thank you.

BODANSKY: A pleasure.

HEMMER: All right, have a good weekend.

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