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CNN Saturday Morning News

Movie 'Black Hawk Down' Recreates the 1993 U.S. Battle in Somalia

Aired December 29, 2001 - 09:31   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: After the September 11 attacks, there was a lot of soul-searching in Hollywood about what entertainment might be appropriate. Well, a powerful war movie called "Black Hawk Down" is hitting the big screen. It recreates a 1993 U.S. battle in Somalia and redefines what it's like to be a soldier under fire.

CNN's Charles Feldman reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): No one would think of calling "Black Hawk Down" a feel-good holiday movie. It is not. It is being released at a time when post-September 11, patriotic themes are again very popular, and the movie aims to strike some of these red, white and blue chords.

(BEGIN MOVIE CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE ACTOR: Look, these people may have no jobs, no food, no education, no future. I just figure that, you know, I mean, we have two things that we can do. We can either help, or we can sit back and watch the country destroy itself on CNN. All right?

(END MOVIE CLIP)

FELDMAN: Sorry for the gratuitous sound byte, but the point is this movie shows what happened when a U.S. humanitarian mission to Somalia, stricken in 1993 by feudal fighting and mass starvation, morphed into a hunt for a notorious warlord. But when a Black Hawk chopper gets shot down, all hell breaks loose, resulting in the most intense firefight involving U.S. troops since the Vietnam War.

Politically, the mission was deemed a flop after a U.S. serviceman's body was shown on TV being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu, Somalia. In this film, though, that scene is not shown. While the fact that the elite unit did manage to get most of its men out alive is portrayed as a military victory.

And now, Somalia, the real Somalia, is back in the news. Perhaps, we are told, the U.S., emboldened by a surprisingly fast victory in Afghanistan, may need to return to Somalia in search of terrorists. Scott Peterson is a journalist who covered Somalia in 1993. In London, we asked him about lessons to be learned from the events portrayed in "Black Hawk Down."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT PETERSON, CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR: The primary lesson that should be drawn from Somalia was that we really need to be extremely careful when we intervene in a situation like this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FELDMAN: Peterson points out that while in Afghanistan, the U.S. had a ready-made proxy army of locals to fight on the ground. This was and is not the case in Somalia.

"Black Hawk Down" doesn't swell on the fact that after the battle portrayed in the film, U.S. forces were soon yanked out, which some feel showed a lack of U.S. resolve. In fact, the filmmakers decided to remove a closing screen crawl that would have suggested this, implying it may have created the atmosphere that made September 11 possible.

Though he wasn't in Somalia, a former deputy commander, who worked with most of the Delta and Special Forces Rangers who were there, says any return to Somalia now would be very different.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: If we do go into Somalia again, we'll go in to win. I'm sure of that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FELDMAN: One of the film's stars says any return to Somalia should be with great caution.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH HARTNETT, ACTOR: We should awfully hard about it. We should make sure that we're getting facts before we just go in and kind of make ourselves feel better by, you know, plucking a few people out of a country that we think has terrorist activity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FELDMAN: The cover of the book, upon which the film is based, calls it a story of a modern war. A story -- yes. But also a lesson.

Charles Feldman, CNN, Las Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, the movie "Black Hawk Down" is based on the book of the same name. It was written by Mark Bowden, a reporter for "The Philadelphia Inquirer." Bowden is also working on a screenplay based on his latest book, "Killing Pablo," about the U.S.-assisted campaign to track down Colombian drug lord Pablo Escobar.

Mark Bowden joins me now from Wilmington, Delaware. He's going to take your phone calls and e-mails questions also on the hunt for bin Laden, what challenges American troops will face in the antiterror campaign as it possibly spreads to Somalia and other war-related topics.

Mark, good to see you again.

MARK BOWDEN, AUTHOR, "KILLING PABLO": Hi, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: You keep coming out with all these good books. I can't wait to see what's next.

BOWDEN: Well, I have to find some time to write one.

PHILLIPS: Yes, no kidding, you're a busy man right now.

Let's backtrack just for a moment. "Killing Pablo," you wrote this book. It was about the hunt for Pablo Escobar, the man, of course, responsible for bringing cocaine into the United States. I hope I'm nutshelling that OK.

Taking a look at that, and the U.S. pursuing Pablo Escobar, and now the U.S. pursuing Osama bin Laden, is there a massive difference here on resources and support this time around?

BOWDEN: Well, there certainly is a lot more public knowledge and support, and I'm sure, you know, in terms of resources, the military has rarely in modern times had the kind of resources that they're getting right now.

But it's basically the same kind of mission. It's targeting the individual -- an individual who's the head of an outlaw organization. In the case of Escobar it was a cocaine cartel, and in the case of Osama bin Laden it's a terrorist group.

And the idea is to sort of map the organization, you know, determine who are the people who are supporting the person at the top, find them, take them down, and hopefully eventually get to the man at the top.

PHILLIPS: So now moving on to "Black Hawk Down," why did you decide to write this book?

BOWDEN: Well, I was struck just like any other American by those terrible images of dead American soldiers being dragged through the streets. And it piqued my curiosity about what had happened there and why.

And I remember I went out and read some of the early accounts of what went on and was struck by the account of this small band of American soldiers, basically surrounded, fighting for their lives over a long, difficult night. And I just thought as a writer, if I could find the men who went through that ordeal, that would make a powerful and dramatic story. PHILLIPS: All right, I'm going to ask you to hold tight, because we have a lot of e-mails, and we're asking people also to call in. We'll try and bring up that phone number. There it is, 404-221-1855. Give us a call now for your questions and e-mails for Mark Bowden. Also, we're going to bring in a pilot who used to fly Black Hawks. He's going to join our discussion here after a quick break.

And once again, it's not too late to join our discussion. Here's the e-mail, wam@cnn.com, and the phone number, 404-221-1855. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, we continue our discussion now on "Black Hawk Down" and the future of the U.S. antiterror campaign.

Let's take a look at a clip from the movie here.

Pretty exciting.

Joining us on our discussion now is Sam Dawson. He's chief warrant officer at Dobbins Air Force Base here in Atlanta and a former Black Hawk pilot.

Matter of fact, you were a Black Hawk pilot in the 160th Special Ops Aviation Regiment that was in that scenario in Somalia, correct?

SAM DAWSON, FORMER BLACK HAWK PILOT: Yes, I was a different section of it, and I was there a couple years after the incident.

PHILLIPS: But you have been through that training and you know what it takes to be in a situation like that. Let's reflect a little bit. Tell me about, as you look at this movie, and I know you've read the book, are you glad that attention is being brought about on this incident in Somalia?

DAWSON: Yes, I think it does focus more attention on the unit, the incident over there, and what is involved in even a peacekeeping mission such as Somalia, that whenever you send your troops overseas, there is some danger involved.

PHILLIPS: Put us in the mindset. Let's talk about the training that you went through to be a part of this special ops regiment. It's not easy.

DAWSON: No, it's -- you cannot just go straight to this unit out of flight school. You have to have at least on one tour, then after that, after doing a tour, they assess you. You go through a whole process, almost like a job interview. And then once they accept you, there's a six-month process before you even get to the unit as a basic co-pilot.

And it's a very rigorous training.

PHILLIPS: What about the psychological tests? DAWSON: They even have a psychological test in order to get in the unit. They're not looking for Mambos, they're looking for people who are level-headed but people who won't quit. For example, for -- one of the questions that raised a red flag for me was that I had just bought a motorcycle, and they were a little concerned that I was a little reckless, and they don't want reckless people, they want level- headed people flying the aircraft.

PHILLIPS: I could imagine they don't want you flying a Black Hawk like you'd be riding a Harley, right?

BOWDEN: Yes, correct.

PHILLIPS: To be a little less aggressive, more aggressive.

BOWDEN: Right.

PHILLIPS: All right, well, look, let's bring in Mark Bowden, author of "Black Hawk Down." You of course have read his book, and now we're talking about the movie his book has been made into.

Mark, I'm introducing you here to Sam. We're going to have a discussion, all right?

BOWDEN: It's always a pleasure to meet a night stalker, Sam.

DAWSON: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: All right. Well, let's get right into the e-mails. Mark, we'll start this one for you, this is the first one that came, from Morton, and he wants to ask you, "How did you think the film adaptation of your book might affect public opinion and the possibility of extending the war on terrorism into Somalia?"

BOWDEN: Well, I think that the movie will certainly familiarize a lot of people with what happened in Mogadishu, but I think more than any kind of political statement, the book is -- or rather the movie and the book is a tribute to the character and the courage of American soldiers, who acquitted themselves so professionally in Mogadishu under very difficult circumstances.

I think the climate in the country is very supportive right now of the American military, and I think this movie is a reminder of what these men are willing to go through, what they do go through, in defense of our country and our values, and basically representing you and I.

PHILLIPS: We're going to go to a phone call now. Joe from Georgia is on the line. Joe, what's your question?

CALLER: Ah, yes, y'all, CNN's doing a great job.

I'd like to ask Sam and Mark, if we go into Somalia, will ground troops be needed? And if so, how many do you think will be needed?

PHILLIPS: Maybe Sam, you can kind of answer that question with regard to how important ground troops are. You know that from being on the ground too.

DAWSON: Yes.

PHILLIPS: Special ops.

DAWSON: I'm sure ground troops would be involved. As far as the number, that's way above the level that I would be involved, as far as the numbers, but I'm sure ground troops would be involved in something like that. It would not just be aircraft going in, especially with Mogadishu, Somalia, being such a confined area where air power has some effect, but there would be a lot of collateral damage in something like that. But again, that'd be way above my level.

PHILLIPS: Well, flying a Black Hawk, you know how important it is integrate that with ground troops. Talk about how Black Hawks are such an important support vehicle for special operations. I mean, they're it, right?

DAWSON: They have the Black Hawks, they have Little Birds, which you also see in this movie, the Chinook, which is a larger aircraft and can carry far more people than the Black Hawk can and is used more for bigger missions than the Black Hawk. And then the Air Force also has some helicopters that are used for missions as well.

PHILLIPS: Let's go on to another e-mail. Sam, I'm going to let you answer this one. This comes from Miami, Florida. "Why is it so difficult to get help for our boys from the U.N. or anyone else? It was obvious they were in a life-or-death situation. To this day, it brings a tear to my eye when I remember watching our boys being dragged through the streets."

DAWSON: Well, there's a writer a long time ago who called a situation like this "the fog of war." You can plan everything down to the best detail, but once the people start fighting, things tend to progress or digress, if you will. And that's where you need very well-trained people such as the night stalkers from the 160th, the Rangers, the Delta Force people, people who, when things start to fall apart, can pick up the pieces and make the best out of a bad situation.

Even with being able to put people on the moon, when you get to a town like Mogadishu, a city like Mogadishu, when the fighting starts, a lot of the technology, it can help you, but only to a certain degree. I mean, you depend on the trained people that are there to help you.

PHILLIPS: And Mark -- you mentioned the fog of war. Mark, I know you've talked about that, you've written about that. You want to give a little insight into that?

BOWDEN: Well, I think, like any -- I mean, it's a terrible analogy, but take a football game. You spend a whole week, each coach in the professional leagues spends a week sort of planning exactly how to defeat his enemy, and if everything went off the way it's written on paper, they would win every game. But the fact is that there's a lot of smart people on the other side who are planning to disrupt your plans, and that's even more true in battle. It's a very -- it's a classically difficult situation where you can count on things going wrong.

PHILLIPS: Jay from Tennessee is on the line. Go ahead, Jay, what's your question?

CALLER: Yes, I wanted to ask both gentlemen about the influence of special operations forces in command, in conventional command structures these days, from the dark days 20 years ago they were ignored and misused. But last week, we got kind of a look inside when they were going to send in the Marines, and then they pulled back on that and decided just to use special operations forces.

And I can just imagine a scenario where Tommy Franks' special operations commander for Central Command, vetoed that and said, Look, just keep it special ops, you don't need to send conventional forces in there.

And that kind of shows the growing influence of special operations forces within conventional command structures. And I'd like both of your gentlemen's comments on that.

PHILLIPS: Sam, any thoughts?

DAWSON: Yes, I think, like the caller said, I think the last 20 years special operations have proven themselves. They're not good for all situations, but it's something that the national command structure can look at, the Joint Chiefs of Staff can look at in some situations. They can use it in some situations. The Marines might be better to send in or regular Army forces might be better to send in.

There are not a large number of special operations forces, and they have been used -- misused in the past in conventional roles. But in special situations, I think the national command structure and the Joint Chiefs of Staff know that they're the best forces available to put in certain situations.

PHILLIPS: Well said.

All right, we're going to take a quick back -- quick break, rather, ask both the gentlemen to stand by. We'll take more questions, calls, and e-mails as soon as we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: And if you're just joining us, we're talking about "Black Hawk Down," the book and also the movie that has just been released. We're joined by Mark Bowden, the author of the book, and big influencer of the movie, I guess we should say. And as I jump into your shot there, sorry about that, Sam Dawson, Black Hawk pilot, joining us here in Atlanta.

We'll get right back to the e-mails, guys. Mark, this one is for you. It comes from John and Jacqueline, and they want to know, "As the parents of a 10th Mountain soldier who was one of the groups that rescued the Ranger who was pinned down trying to rescue the Black Hawk crew, I find it very interesting that they were not mentioned in the book or the movie. They were the ones who pulled the Rangers out of the death's door." Your comments on that.

BOWDEN: Well, they are, in fact, mentioned in both the movie and the book. The story focuses on the men who undertook the raid, who actually went out and roped into the city and who ended up trapped in the city for 10 to 15 hours.

But there's no doubt that the men from the 10th Mountain Division who rode in to their rescue, you know, saved their asses, basically, and I think, you know, that -- it's a great story, it doesn't happen to be the story that I wrote, but I do think they deserve all the credit and respect in the world. And as I say, they are mentioned in both the book and the movie.

PHILLIPS: Well, when we start talking about saving butts, if you will, we definitely -- I think maybe Sam, you can comment on this -- the creed, never leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy, no matter what the situation. You don't leave a man behind, correct?

DAWSON: Correct. And that was one of the great things about working in special operations was that talking to the other forces, they always knew that if they were in a bad situation, we would come and get them. And as shown in Somalia, when an aircraft went down, we could always know that they would come and get us. They would not leave us behind.

PHILLIPS: What kind of training do you go through to -- I mean, everybody's human, so you don't actually always know how someone's going to react in a high-threat situation like that. But yet it's incredible, the mentality. How do you hold onto that? How do you practice that creed and know what's going to happen in wartime?

DAWSON: Well, first they try and pick people out who do that. And a perfect example, again, when I went through my assessment, there was a person who did not know how to swim. But part of the assessment was a swim test. And they kept putting this person in the pool, he'd fall to the bottom of the pool, they'd pull him up and ask him if he was going to quit, he'd say no. They'd put him back in the pool, he'd go to the bottom, they'd pull him up, ask him if he was going to quit, he'd say no.

And they took him. They felt it was easier to train somebody to swim than to train somebody to have that kind of mentality where they just would never quit. They would keep driving on.

And then they put you through training that -- for example, survival training, the survival training they put you through is very intense, it's three weeks of extremely intense training. And if you can make it through that, you can (UNINTELLIGIBLE) say it prepares you for everything. But it really gives you a core foundation to fall back upon. PHILLIPS: And Mark, when meeting these guys and writing this book and helping put the movie together, what moved you the most? Was it this mentality, or was it something else that really hit you?

BOWDEN: Well, I -- you know, in meeting the men who were involved in this battle, you can't help but be moved. It was certainly one of the most traumatic and difficult and important episodes of their lives. And, you know, a lot of the men who I interviewed when I wrote the book broke down while I was talking to them. They lost some of their best friends. You know, they faced death on that day. And, you know, it was a terrifying ordeal that they survived. They're left with feelings of guilt and trauma over it.

So I think anyone who spends time with these men and asks them to tell their story can't help but be moved.

PHILLIPS: This e-mail comes from Mary Lou, and she says in her e-mail, "I teach ESOL, English as a second language, to many Somali refugees, especially young people and teenagers. Many of them barely remember Somalia because they lived in refugee camps in Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, et cetera, for many years before coming to the U.S. What do you think is the most important for them to learn about the book and/or movie `Black Hawk Down'?"

Sam, what do you want those kids, even there and here in the United States, to know about that incident and to know about the American soldier?

DAWSON: To know about the American soldier is that we are a democratic army. It's a volunteer force. They are your brothers, your sisters, the kids you grew up with. And any time they're going to send the military overseas, even if it's a mission like this which starts out fairly benign as a peacekeeping mission, that there's always a danger involved, and it's people's lives involved.

And make sure that it is a mission that people, American people want to support. It's an open society. They're going to know about the mission eventually. Make sure they support that mission and understand the potential consequences in human lives.

PHILLIPS: Mark, final thoughts?

BOWDEN: Well, I would like people to be aware that these missions that we send our soldiers out to conduct around the world are often very dangerous and very difficult. And I do think the United States is well intentioned, but often fails to really grasp the complexity of the circumstances. And so things can really go wrong, and we can get in over our heads.

I'm really pleased to see that with the current effort in Afghanistan, we've been so tremendously successful. And I think that it shows that our military learned something from what happened in Somalia.

PHILLIPS: So Mark, your next book, is it going to be about Afghanistan?

BOWDEN: Actually no, I'm working on a book about the Iran hostage crisis of 1979-1980. But it's still a few years away.

PHILLIPS: Well, we'll be seeing you definitely when that comes out. Mark Bowden, author of "Black Hawk Down" and "Killing Pablo," thank you so much for being with us.

BOWDEN: Thank you, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Sam Dawson, part of the 160th that was focused on in "Black Hawk Down" and now still flying for the 171st here at Georgia National Guard, we appreciate your being with us.

DAWSON: Thanks for having me, appreciate it.

PHILLIPS: All right.

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