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CNN Saturday Morning News
Interview With Robert Oakley
Aired January 05, 2002 - 09:18 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: We are getting word of an informal meeting today between Pakistan and India. The foreign ministers are said to be meeting on the sidelines at the South Asian summit in Nepal.
For more on those and other late-breaking developments, we go to CNN's Michael Holmes, who is covering the international gathering in Kathmandu. He joins us live via videophone -- Michael.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Marty.
Yes, well, continuing a grand tradition of not being able to agree on much of anything, the Indian and Pakistan delegations here can't agree on whether that meeting between foreign ministers took place, at least not on a one-on-one basis.
Now, what happened was, a couple of hours ago we received word from our sources in the Pakistan delegation, very senior sources, who said that the two foreign ministers were indeed meeting at that hour, that's about two hours ago, at the hotel where they're staying, about half a kilometer from here, and were having discussions about the crisis. It was very specific information, and they were absolutely positive.
We called Indian sources. They said, Yes, it's true. And then we called them again about 20 minutes later, Oh, no, it's not true, that there was a gathering of seven foreign ministers, the attendees here at this South Asian regional summit, and that they were at that meeting. It was a group meeting, not a one-on-one.
Now, of course, it's a very fluid situation here, depending on who you want to listen to. The Pakistanis, however, have been insistent that the meeting took place. If it did, it would be a major breakthrough on a day of some drama here in Kathmandu. The international community, of course, including the U.S., has been putting enormous pressure on these countries to calm things down along their border, and to talk.
Well, it started off with General Pervez Musharraf, the Pakistan president, giving a speech condemning terrorism and then making a rather grand gesture. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEN. PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN: Before I step down from this podium, I would like to use this exalted forum of the south to extend a hand of genuine, sincere friendship to Prime Minister Vajpayee.
ATAL BEHARI VAJPAYEE, INDIAN PRIME MINISTER: Thank you.
MUSHARRAF: Let us together commence a journey of peace, harmony, and progress in South Asia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: In return for that hand of friendship, in return for that hand of friendship, there was a smile from the Indian prime minister, a warm smile. These two men actually do get along in private. And it raised hopes that the ice had perhaps broken.
Not really, though. Mr. Vajpayee, when it was his turn to speak, got up and said the gesture was nice. And then he got tough.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VAJPAYEE: I'm glad that President Musharraf extended a hand of friendship to me. I have shaken his hand in your presence. Now President Musharraf must follow this gesture by not permitting any activity in Pakistan or any territory in its control today which enables terrorists to perpetrate mindless violence in India.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: In short, the Indian prime minister saying Pakistan still has not done enough to warrant conducive atmosphere that India says is required for talks. Pakistan, not surprisingly, very disappointed. They feel they've done enormous amounts over the last few weeks in curbing militants on their turf, and they say that they're ready for talks.
Marty, back to you.
SAVIDGE: Thank you, Michael, very much, reporting to us from Kathmandu at the site of that ongoing summit.
For more insight into the standoff between Pakistan and India, we turn to Robert Oakley, former U.S. ambassador to Pakistan. He joins us now live from our Washington bureau.
Good morning to you, ambassador. Thank you for being with us.
ROBERT OAKLEY, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO PAKISTAN: Thank you. How are you this morning?
SAVIDGE: I'm good, thanks.
What are we to make of what is taking place there in Kathmandu? You have offerings of cooperation, you have smiles being exchanged with handshakes. And yet also confusion. Is this just the way that part of the world is?
OAKLEY: This is the way it is between India and Pakistan. It's been this way for a long, long time, to my knowledge. In 1987, 1990, and again at the time of the Kargil incursion in 1999, you had major military buildups, confrontations between India and Pakistan. In all three cases they were able to overcome them, in all three cases with the help of the United States.
But this is more acute than before because of the terrible thing which happened to the Indian parliament. On the other hand, General Musharraf has recognized the danger to Pakistan of these Islamic groups operating in Kashmir who've gotten totally out of control, just as the groups operating in Afghanistan got totally out of control. And he's taking unprecedented steps to deal with it.
It's going to require time. I'm confident that Prime Minister (sic) Musharraf and Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh know this, but there are hawks within the Indian government. There are also problem with domestic political perception. You can't appear to be soft on Pakistan even if you understand.
So whether or not they meet publicly with acknowledged one-on-one talks or not, the understanding level is going up, the tensions are going to go down. It's time for the Indians to begin removing some of their troops, which put pressure upon Pakistan, really, by their presence to divert resources from the Afghan border, which is where they're needed.
SAVIDGE: So you think that actually tensions now should start declining in that area.
OAKLEY: I think they will, because Musharraf has done things that no one ever dared do before. Knowing the threat to Pakistan itself, these people want to provoke a war between Pakistan and India, which would cause the entire effort against terrorism to collapse, because Musharraf couldn't sustain it in the case -- face of a war with India or any Indian incursion into Pakistan.
So he's doing the right thing for Pakistan as well as for the region, and he's serving the objectives which the United States shares.
SAVIDGE: What about a U.S. envoy to the region? Some have said that it's a bit late, that perhaps it should have been thought of some time ago?
OAKLEY: Well, with Secretary of State Powell, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, and President Bush in contact with the leaders in both countries, I'm not sure you need a special envoy. At the right time, I'm sure someone will go out and do the necessary. We've done this before. But I don't think it's been essential because the right things have been done, the right things have been said. India has shown restraint. Musharraf has shown tremendous courage and leadership.
And I think it will continue. SAVIDGE: Some Pakistani officials are saying that those that are fighting against repression in Kashmir have a legitimate cause. And this seems to fly in the face of what the Bush administration has said, you know, you're either for us or against us. In other words, one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist, and that's exactly what is happening there.
OAKLEY: Well, I think you have to make a distinction. And I know the Bush administration makes a distinction, in fact, the Indians make a distinction, only they don't like to talk about it, between genuine grievances, which have caused uprisings inside Kashmir without any provocation on the part of Pakistan, and outfits like the al Taiba and other -- Lashkar, who definitely provoked huge problems by deliberately attacking civilian targets.
The parliament in Kashmir itself, the Indian parliament, civilians deliberately targeted. That's a different thing than freedom fighters.
SAVIDGE: Robert Oakley, former U.S. ambassador to Pakistan, we thank you for your insights this morning and coming in on this Saturday. Thank you.
OAKLEY: OK.
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