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CNN Saturday Morning News
Interview With Scott Silliman
Aired January 26, 2002 - 08:16 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: This week the American accused of fighting with the Taliban heard charges against him in federal court. Those charges against John Walker Lindh carry a life prison sentence. But for now he awaits his next court date in a prison cell in Virginia.
CNN's Jonathan Aiken gives us a feel for what life is like for John Walker Lindh.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JONATHAN AIKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): John Walker Lindh's address these days, a local jail in Alexandria, Virginia. He's one of about 135 federal prisoners housed here, just blocks away from the federal courthouse where his trial will be held.
Walker Lindh shares a floor with convicted spy Robert Hanssen and Zacarias Moussaoui, the French man facing four conspiracy counts in connection with 9-11. Inmates either notorious or noteworthy are no stranger to this place.
SHERIFF JAMES DUNNING, ALEXANDRIA POLICE: Our internal security is as high as it has ever been.
AIKEN: The external security is pretty tight, too. Even before Walker arrived Wednesday night, barbed wire and concrete barricades blocked entrances and a manned checkpoint clears all visitors. Inside, no pictures allowed for security reasons.
But we're told Walker Lindh's accommodations are no different than those for other inmates -- Spartan. The standard cell, about 80 square feet, roughly 7 1/2-by-7 1/2. And not much in there -- a sink, a stainless steel toilet and a bed, not really a bed. It's a concrete slab covered by a thin mattress. This is a temporary address. Inmates aren't supposed to get comfortable.
Open to all the cells on the floor, a common area with a TV, tables and chairs. Not that John Walker Lindh will be able to enjoy them much. He's joining Moussaoui in what's called administrative segregation.
DUNNING: Those folks spend roughly 23 hours a day in their cell. They are out of their cell for one hour a day for hygiene, exercise, making phone calls, taking care of personal matters. But frankly, their movement is limited. Their activities are very limited, as is their contact with other inmates.
AIKEN: Walker's belief in Islam isn't an issue. The prison's experience with Muslim inmates means diet and hygiene requirements of the faith are met. There's even a human compass pointing him east towards Mecca.
DUNNING: Last evening, one of the deputies pointed out to Mr. Lindh which direction was east so that he could properly situate himself for prayer.
AIKEN: Alexandria, Virginia is a long way from Mazar-e Sharif. But a cell is still a cell.
Jonathan Aiken for CNN, Alexandria, Virginia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: The charges against John Walker Lindh include conspiracy to kill Americans. This morning we'll take a look at the legal maneuvers prosecutors and defenders might use in trying this case.
Scott Silliman is joining me from Durham, North Carolina. He is executive director of the Center on Law Ethics and National Security at Duke University.
Good to have you with us.
SCOTT SILLIMAN, DUKE UNIVERSITY: Good morning, Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right, let's start off as prosecutor. Put your prosecutor hat on, the P-hat, if you will. How would you go about proving this case? It seems as if a lot rests on that videotape that -- those statements made that CNN obtained exclusively which were very damning storms.
SILLIMAN: Yes, you're exactly correct, Miles.
I think what the government is going to do is first of all put in some kind of actual evidence concerning his capture to prove that he was with the Taliban forces. That's the predicate. Then the CNN tape will probably come in. I think the government wants to put that in because Walker does acknowledge his ties with al Qaeda training, the terrorist groups, how he got to Afghanistan.
I think that tape will probably come in. It wasn't questions asked by the government. It was a commercial concern. The only test will be reliability. I think a judge will let that go to the jury.
The government's then going to try to get in the admissions to the FBI. That's the more difficult one, Miles. That's the one where you've got admissions that really go to the government's principal charge of conspiracy to kill a U.S. national overseas. That's the admissions that the government drastically needs to prove its case and that will be the most difficult part of the case for the government to prove. O'BRIEN: And that would be difficult because that might have been an improperly obtained, essentially, confession, then? Is that what you're saying?
SILLIMAN: Yes, it is. And I'll put on my defense hat now, Miles, and suggest that if I'm the defense, that's the statement I want to attack, that FBI statement, because, again, that runs towards the principal offense of conspiracy. And what I would suggest is that it wasn't a knowing and voluntary waiver of his rights.
You'll notice that Mr. Brosnahan, at the initial hearing, really launched his first salvo for the defense by suggesting that Walker had been asking for an attorney from two days after he was captured. That means there's a presumption that that request for counsel was known by the government, whether it's military or FBI really doesn't matter, collectively the government was aware of that. And then the defense will say why was it only eight days later that he supposedly waived his right?
The defense will put a very tough burden on the prosecution as far as showing that that statement to the FBI was truly voluntary.
And again, without that statement, the government's case as to the principal charge will be very, very difficult.
O'BRIEN: You know, this case sort of resided to date in the murky world halfway between the military justice system and the civil justice system. It has ended up in the latter. Could that be used by the prosecution as a way of explaining why he did not have any access to an attorney? In other words, we presumed him to be a detainee or prisoner of war and thus he was not afforded the kinds of things you would be afforded if you were arrested here in the us.
SILLIMAN: You're exactly correct, Miles.
While he was being interrogated by military intelligence officials, he had no right to counsel. He didn't have to be advised of his rights.
When the FBI started questioning him on the ninth of December, of course, he was. And they apparently advised him of his rights and he waived those rights.
Now, the problem is that the government's got to show that when you switch from intelligence questioning to criminal law questioning, a criminal investigation, that Walker actually understood the difference. And again, that's where that comment that he apparently made way back on the second day of his capture that he wanted a lawyer, the government's going to have to show that he clearly changed his mind. It's a burden they're going to have to overcome.
O'BRIEN: One final thought. This, at least to me, seems like it has plea bargain written all over it.
SILLIMAN: I totally agree, Miles, and I have been suggesting all along that the charges of assisting and aiding terrorist groups under 29, 23-39B are probably fairly easily proved by the government. The conspiracy charge is not. I would think that the defense might plead him guilty to the lesser charges if the government drops the conspiracy charge. We might end up with 10 to 20 years in prison. I think that's the way it'll probably end up.
O'BRIEN: All right, thank you very much, Counselor. We appreciate the free legal advice.
Scott Silliman with Duke University, always appreciate your time.
SILLIMAN: Thanks, Miles.
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