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CNN Saturday Morning News
Interview With Ed Brown, Stephen Smith
Aired January 26, 2002 - 07:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Justice is supposed to blind, but September 11 could have changed that somewhat. Today, Muslims in America are questioning if they stand a chance of getting a fair trial in American courts.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): From the ashes of September 11, some see a backlash against Muslims. There are allegations of racial profiling. Some Americans are even afraid to fly on the same plane with anyone that looks Middle Eastern or wears Islamic clothing.
The president has preached tolerance.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: America is made better by millions of Muslim citizens.
O'BRIEN: But can Americans put aside their emotions?
Jamil Abdulah Al-Amin certainly hopes so. He is on trial for allegedly gunning down two sheriff's deputies in Atlanta in March of 2000. Al-Amin was formerly known as H. Rap Brown -- one of the leaders of the militant '60s group, The Black Panthers.
Initially, it was thought his past would be a liability during his trial. Now, potentially, it's his religion.
Al-Amin is a Muslim. Al-Amin's trial was to begin September 12. It was delayed because of concerns the terrorist attacks might bias potential jurors. He and his lawyers are hoping at least 12 Americans can put aside whatever negative feelings they have about Muslims and decide his fate based on the facts. Al-Amin's life literally depends on it.
Jury selection got underway earlier this month. More than 1,500 potential jurors are expected to be called -- three times the usual number. The "Atlanta Journal-Constitution" is reporting one potential juror said Al-Amin's beard and Islamic clothing reminded her of Osama bin Laden.
With other Muslims set to face off against America's criminal justice system, the question is: Can Americans look at a Muslim on trial and not think about tragedies created in the name of Islam?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: For more on Al-Amin's case, and the larger issue of whether Muslims can, indeed, expect justice in the United States, I'm joined by Ed Brown. He is Jamil Abdulah Al-Amin's brother.
ED BROWN, BROTHER OF JAMIL ABDULAH AL-AMIN: Good morning.
O'BRIEN: Also weighing in on this is University of Law (sic) Professor Stephen Smith, joining us from Chicago.
Welcome to you both, gentlemen.
BROWN: Thank you very much.
STEPHEN SMITH, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA LAW SCHOOL: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Brown, let's begin with you. Do you think your brother can get a fair trial?
BROWN: Well, I think one of the things is that by asking the question, can he get a fair trial? -- I think it's like being a little bit pregnant. You say that it raises a serious issue whether or not a fair trial is possible, in terms of raising the question itself.
O'BRIEN: So merely asking the question, you think, makes it impossible?
BROWN: Well, I think it is going to be extraordinarily difficult for him to receive a fair trial.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Smith, would you agree?
SMITH: I would. And I think actually the fact that we're asking whether he could get a fair trial is a symbol of America's commitment to fairness in the criminal justice system. And it's not perfect, but we certainly aim to have a fair and accurate determination of guilt or innocence, so we're going to use procedures to make sure that we get jurors who can put aside -- who won't be prejudiced and will decide the case based on the facts and the law.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Smith, I suppose in this case, jury selection is everything. Right?
SMITH: That's right. And the courts and the lawyers are going to spend, like, dozens of man-hours literally spending time asking jurors about their views about Muslims, their ability to separate out the Muslims who are -- particular terrorists who are responsible for the 9-11 attacks, and focus on the evidence in the case before them.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Brown, I wonder if, in some way, you perhaps are underestimating the citizens of the Atlanta area, for example -- that they might very well be able to look at this dispassionately and separate from any sort of feelings they might have about terrorism and 9-11.
BROWN: That is the hope. That is not the certainty. We cannot escape the fact that 9-1-1 affected everyone. It affected their perceptions in terms of terrorism, affected their perception in terms of Muslims, affect their perceptions in terms of Islam.
Now, whether or not one can set aside those prejudices -- whether there are 12 good and decent people who will make the effort to set aside those prejudices is something that is still an open question.
O'BRIEN: It seems to me, Mr. Brown, that the only solution in this case -- inasmuch as a murder charge is leveled here -- is to ask for a delay. And thus far, your brother has preferred to get this trial going and not ask for a delay. The judge has even said he would grant a delay.
BROWN: He -- a delay was indeed -- was indeed granted. My brother is anxious to prove his innocence, but we have a responsibility to try to ensure that the evidence and the testimony that is provided can be heard, and that people can move beyond whatever prejudices they have -- whatever kind of malice that they may have -- to really look at the evidence and follow the evidence in terms of reaching a conclusion.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Smith, let's open the issue up just a little bit.
Is -- this is certainly the most celebrated trial, post-9-11, of a Muslim -- certainly, a Muslim cleric in the U.S. Do you know it to be the only one? And is there any precedent thus far, in other words?
SMITH: Well, John Lindh -- the so-called American Taliban -- was just handed over to civil authorities on -- federal civil authorities in Virginia just this past week. Remember that the sheik who was responsible for orchestrating the '93 attack on the World Trade Center -- they were tried and convicted here in New York -- the site of the attack. The trial was very fair.
And so I think we do have a lot of precedent for being to handle this in a fair and responsible way. And I expect that to be what happens in this particular case.
O'BRIEN: Would you -- if you were involved in this case, say, defending Mr. Brown -- would you suggest a delay?
SMITH: I probably would, just to make sure that we spent all the time we could thinking about the implications of September 11, making sure we ask all the right questions of potential jurors. I -- but having said that, I can certainly understand Mr. Al-Amin's desire to go forward with the trial. He's being held on charges -- very serious charges -- and so, if he's innocent, I can understand why he'd want to hurry up and have his day in court.
O'BRIEN: Of course, I meant in that question, Mr. Al-Amin, not Mr. Brown.
Let's go back to Mr. Brown. Let me ask you what you suggest as a potential solution here.
BROWN: Well, I think that it requires an extraordinary effort on the part of those people who will sit in judgment, and looking at the evidence and following the evidence, and not be swayed by the kind of atmosphere that has been created -- a kind of unbiased atmosphere.
I am struck by the fact that we are now looking at issues of profiling Arabs. I'm struck by fact in terms of the kinds of detentions that are being done. You -- we did not get that with Timothy McVeigh. No one decided to profile all white Americans who bore similar characteristics in terms of Mr. McVeigh. But we do have that when we are talking about Muslims. It has a chilling effect in terms of the possibility of being able to receive a fair trial.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Smith, a final point here. Members of Symbionese Liberation Army now facing some justice -- among them Sara Jane Olson. It might very well affect them in a similar fashion, if you make the supposition that jurors are less inclined to look with some compassion on former terrorists. And maybe the issue isn't so much whether they're Muslims.
Would you go along with that?
SMITH: Well, I guess I think there's something to that, although, you know, it's natural if -- well, I mean, it's natural that jurors are going to be -- they're citizens, they're going to be concerned about crime like all the rest of us. But I think the key thing is their ability to be able to put aside whatever fears they have, and prejudices, and just decide based on the law.
I mean, nobody loves terrorists. I mean, I think Americans, like the rest of the civilized world, recognizes them for the coward that they are. It's am immoral act. They've blasphemed Islam by doing this. And so justice has to be done.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Brown, what does your brother say about all this?
BROWN: What does my brother say about the fact that he has to be tried under this atmosphere?
O'BRIEN: Yes.
BROWN: Well, my brother, as I indicated, was willing to go ahead because he feels that he is innocent against these charges. However, there's a larger responsibility to ensure that there is fairness in terms of people being able to hear the evidence.
And I think that there is a serious, serious problem here in terms of whether or not we've compromised the possibility of people being able to hear the fair testimony, by all of the kinds of suggestions and allegations and innuendoes that relate to Muslims and that relate to Arabs.
O'BRIEN: Good place to end it. Good words to remember as this trial moves forward, for all concerned.
Ed Brown, the brother of Jamil Abdulah Al-Amin, and Stephen Smith, with the University of Virginia, we appreciate your both joining us this morning. BROWN: Thank you very much.
SMITH: Thank you very much.
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