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CNN Saturday Morning News
Reporter's Notebook: Mideast Diplomacy
Aired March 16, 2002 - 09:38 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: All right, now comes one of our favorite segments with our favorite people.
U.S. envoy Anthony Zinni is meeting with Israeli and Palestinian leaders today in an effort to stem the escalating violence in that region.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: And joining us to answer your questions about the conflict and the talks, CNN's Michael Holmes in Jerusalem. In Washington, on the North Lawn of the White House, as she is wont to be on weekend mornings, White House correspondent Kelly Wallace.
Good to have you both with us.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good to be with you.
O'BRIEN: And I just want to thank everybody in advance for the great e-mails, because we've already gotten a ton. Now's the time to call. We'd love to hear your voice as well, 404-221-1855 is that number.
Why don't we go to an e-mail, and we'll wait for those phone lines to just light up, shall we?
PHILLIPS: You got it.
O'BRIEN: This is from Betsy Schreiber in New York. "Arafat can function like a diplomat while the Fatah, Hamas, and Islam Jihad are free to blow themselves up, taking Israeli civilians with them. How will the factions functioning outside the diplomatic loop be controlled?"
There is a very good question, and we'll start with Michael.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, hi, guys.
Yes, that is a good question, and it's one that I think Yasser Arafat's very aware of, and certainly Anthony Zinni's well aware of too. Yasser Arafat has some difficulties in that regard. He's said for a long time now, he can't control every single suicide bomber who wants to go onto -- into Israeli cities and blow himself up, that it's very difficult to control elements of Hamas, although what we have seen lately in this recent violence is a large increase in the action of the Al-Aqsa Brigade, which is linked to the Fatah movement of Yasser Arafat. And one would think he does hold sway with that organization.
Just how much sway he has over elements like Hamas, like Islamic Jihad, is very crucial to whether whatever Anthony Zinni can work out actually sticks.
PHILLIPS: All right, we're going to go to the phones, guys. Joe from Georgia's on the line. Go ahead, Joe, what's your question?
CALLER: Yes, thank you very much. CNN is truly a great network. My question for Kelly, Kelly, the American taxpayers have pumped literally billions of dollars into the Mideast. How close are we to achieving peace?
WALLACE: Oh, wow, Joe, what a difficult, difficult question and premise. Obviously, most people say not very close right now. The situation that we saw this week, really the worst violence we've seen, really, over a past year and a half.
And a lot of pressure, Joe, as you know, on this administration to get more involved, coming from Arab allies, coming from people within the United States as well. You did see something interesting this week.
You saw this administration, it has particularly been putting the onus on Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, really holding him accountable to do more, as Michael was just saying, but this week we definitely saw the administration stepping up the pressure publicly and privately on the Israelis after thousands of troops and tanks went into Ramallah and other Palestinian areas, even had the president, at his news conference, saying the Israeli actions were, quote, "not helpful," very, very significant.
You have the envoy, Anthony Zinni, in the region now. He's expressing some optimism, expressing some hope the two sides will, you know, agree to some sort of cease-fire. But a long way away to getting the two sides back to the peace table and getting to any peace process down the road.
O'BRIEN: All right, let's go back to the e-mailbox, shall we? This one comes from Sukh Sidhu, and I apologize to you if I didn't do that well. "We stick our noses in every other place in the world. Why not send troops into Israel and Palestine and lock it down?" Michael Holmes?
HOLMES: Yes, that's probably not going to be a good idea, and particularly while both sides are trying to bring troops out of the region. There are still today Israeli troops in some of the Palestinian-controlled areas, and that's not something that makes the Palestinians very happy. They say they can't even begin to talk while those troops are there.
I don't think bringing in an international force is something that would work in the region at all. There has been for some time talk of international monitors, particularly American monitors, who'd be able to act in a role of overseeing some of the committees they're trying to set up, the cooperation committees.
That's probably more the way to go, where these monitoring groups would be watching each decision, say the Tenant peace plan, which is meant to get the parties on the road to the Mitchell plan, and where, say, the Palestinians are required to arrest militants, the groups would then monitor and make sure that those militants are indeed in jail, locked up, as per the agreement, and on the other side, if Israel's not meant to go in certain areas, those monitors would make sure that that happens.
That's something that I think people in the region, and certainly analysts here that we've spoken to, think's a far more workable solution than just bringing in troops. There seems to be troops in every other country at the moment.
O'BRIEN: All right, can we -- I know we got to go to break, but briefly, let's get Kelly in on this, because of the White House perspective on this is interesting too. Go ahead, Kelly.
WALLACE: It is, and it's interesting because, you know, you have this administration fighting a war on terrorism in Afghanistan, taking that campaign around the world. And you know you have the Israelis saying what they are doing is fighting terrorism just like the Bush administration is.
So it's always been sort of a balancing act for the White House, saying it understands Israel's need to defend itself from acts of terror, but at the same time really pressing the Israelis not to sort of go beyond that and exercise some restraint and not, you know, make sure that any innocent Palestinian civilians are getting killed as the Israelis try to prevent acts of terror.
So it's sort of interesting that this administration, while it has its own campaign against terrorism, is sort of got a balancing act in terms of how to deal with what Israel is saying it's trying to do to protect itself as well.
PHILLIPS: Kelly Wallace, Michael Holmes, stay with us. We're going to take a quick break, we'll be right back, continue this discussion, take more e-mails and calls.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: We're continuing our discussion on the crisis in the Middle East. Michael Holmes is with us from Jerusalem, and our Kelly Wallace right there planted in the front of the White House lawn.
O'BRIEN: Well, it's spring, time for planting.
PHILLIPS: Because (UNINTELLIGIBLE) she's got her green on for St. Patty's Day. But we have...
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: ... feel like a tree.
PHILLIPS: Yes.
O'BRIEN: If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?
PHILLIPS: All right, we're going to branch out here...
O'BRIEN: All right...
PHILLIPS: ... and take a phone call...
O'BRIEN: Anyway...
PHILLIPS: ... Ed from Massachusetts, what's your question?
CALLER: Question is, these refugee camps that are in the Palestinian-controlled areas, I assume they're Palestinian-controlled. Why are there refugees living there? Why aren't they absorbed into the Palestinian-controlled areas?
PHILLIPS: Michael Holmes.
HOLMES: Well, that's true, they are in Palestinian-controlled areas. The people who are in them, however, are people who have claims on territory within Israel proper. You hear a lot of talk in the discussions about Israel and the Palestinians about the right of return for refugees. Many of those refugees are not in Israel or the occupied territories, they're in neighboring countries.
But many of them are in the refugee camps. And they'd prefer to stay in what's called refugee camps because if they leave them, then they won't be seen any longer as refugees with claim on ancestral homes or land going back many, many years, in some cases generations.
And some of these refugee camps aren't what you would perhaps expect to see in Africa or other places. While they are desperately poor in many cases, and the conditions are not good, many of them don't have even really defined borders. There's not, like, a fence around the refugee camp. In Ramallah, for example, it's more like a part of Ramallah.
But these people are very much hanging onto the notion that they have a right to return one day to what was the family home.
O'BRIEN: Let's go back to the e-mail, shall we? And this is proof that there are times when we take things for granted with our viewers. And this is worth pointing out to everybody and taking the time for it. "Many of your viewers are unable to understand what is meant by the reference in your news reports about peace talks which mention a return to the '67 or pre-1967 borders. Will you please place a large map on the TV screen which shows how the borders have changed from pre-'67 to present time?" That good question from Jim Sanders, who is in Lowland, North Carolina.
Tell you what, I'm going to bring up a map. And while we're doing that, let's talk with Kelly about the issues of territory there, because whenever you talk land for peace, it brings you right into that issue of what land we are talking about.
WALLACE: Exactly. And if we could get up a map, I think that would be great for Jim and other viewers.
O'BRIEN: Here it is.
WALLACE: You know...
O'BRIEN: Here it is, right here. We found it on a Web site this morning. This is pre-'67.
PHILLIPS: Go ahead, Kelly.
WALLACE: Well, I can barely -- I'm sorry, I can't see that map well. Yes, well, we're often talking about pre-1967 borders. We're talking about the Arab-Israeli war going back to 1967, and territory that the Israelis obtained during that war, parts of the West Bank, parts of Gaza, parts of Palestinian areas now.
And so what the Palestinians have been pressing for, and as we've heard through talks upon talks upon talks over the past decade, is getting access to that land that Israel obtained during the 1967 war.
And the initiative that's really gotten a lot of people somewhat optimistic, being put forward by the Saudi Arabians, by Crown Prince Abdullah, would be that Saudi Arabia, a country that has never said this before, that Saudi Arabia and other Arab allies would have full normalization of relations with Israel, a very significant thing coming from countries like Saudi Arabia, if Israel would return to those borders that existed before 1967.
The sunlight is blocking my view of this map, Miles, maybe you guys can do a better job than I can to describe what you're seeing on that screen there.
O'BRIEN: Well, I mean, yes, there's some key issues there...
PHILLIPS: There you go.
O'BRIEN: ... and we can just sort of highlight the area, the Golan Heights, obviously, the West Bank is an issue. Michael, why don't you give us a quick geography lesson so we understand exactly what places we're talking about. And by the way, while we send it to Michael, unfortunately we've got to bid adieu to Kelly. She's got some other commitments, I -- for some reason, we don't know what that's all about. We'll have to deal with that later.
PHILLIPS: Hey, she has to tend to every network here at CNN.
O'BRIEN: All right, Kelly's going to...
PHILLIPS: Kelly, thank you.
O'BRIEN: Kelly, thank you. Michael Holmes...
WALLACE: OK, sorry to leave you, bye, guys. O'BRIEN: That's all right. Give us a quick geography lesson if you would, and give us a sense of what territory we're talking about when we're talking pre- and post-'67 borders, as we look at Israel there, and this is pre-'67, before the push into the Sinai Peninsula that we're looking at right now.
HOLMES: Yes, I think Kelly hit it pretty much on the head. I'm at more of a disadvantage, I don't have the sun in my eyes, but I can't see you guys here, so I can't even see what map you're putting up.
Well, perhaps the most contentious out of all of it, of course, is the city of Jerusalem, where we are now. Both sides lay claim to it. They both want it as their state capital. And neither is inclined to give up Jerusalem. And that's always been and will probably always be one of the major sticking points when it comes to deciding what land goes where.
There is talk around here of land deals going on, but the borders, the so-called green line, if you like, which is how the border, if you like, between the West Bank and Israel is described, that it's not set in stone, that perhaps some areas of that that are Israeli settlements could go back within Israel, and then Israel would give up the same amount of land in other areas where there aren't settlements.
The talk of borders, pre-1967 borders, Kelly's right, it's going back to land that was in Palestinian hands, if you like, before the war. And of course Israel made great territorial advances during that war.
Going back would be a big thing for Israel, whether it's something that they can live with remains to be seen in these discussions we're seeing going, guy.
O'BRIEN: Yes, I suppose just quickly, it's, you know, worth pointing out, of course, Jerusalem, there's all kinds of deep-rooted issues there, religious and otherwise, cultural.
But the Golan Heights strategically is just so crucial to the small part of the world, you really have the high ground, quite literally.
HOLMES: Yes, that's right, Israel's always seen it as not really an issue of culture or religion or anything else, they've seen it as an issue of security. That is a very strategic area militarily in terms of what Israel sees as its ability to defend its country.
And you're touching on a good point there, Miles. I don't know that people who haven't been here understand how small this is, this whole area of Israel and the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
Gaza Strip, and I don't know if the map shows that, the Gaza Strip is, and I -- somebody's going to say I'm wrong here on the specifics, but it's about eight miles by two miles. It's the most heavily populated area of land on earth, or certainly used to be. And so you're talking about pretty small areas here.
O'BRIEN: All right. Michael Holmes, thanks for the geography lesson, and the other insights as well. We appreciate it. And be safe over there. Appreciate your excellent questions as well, both e- mail and on the phone.
PHILLIPS: Good stuff, boy...
O'BRIEN: As always, our viewers come through and really make it -- make this segment work for us, don't they? Yes.
PHILLIPS: Learn a bit of history. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) remind Friedman's book, "Arab and a Jew." That's another great one. These questions that are coming through about the history...
O'BRIEN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
PHILLIPS: ... I recommend it definitely, it helped me understand the history, complex...
O'BRIEN: "From Beirut to Jerusalem," another one of these.
PHILLIPS: Ah, that's right.
O'BRIEN: All right.
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