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CNN Saturday Morning News

Sporadic Fighting Continues in Ramallah

Aired March 30, 2002 - 07:02   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Back to our top story now, the crisis in the Middle East. It has exploded this Easter weekend, riveting the attention of the world community.

We have live reports from all over the region. Our John Vause is in Jerusalem, a city not normally a focal point of Christians this holy week.

But first we'll go to Michael Holmes. He's in Ramallah, and within earshot of fighting near Yasser Arafat's headquarters -- Michael.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, yes, it was just a few hours ago that there were a series of gunshots there. There has been sporadic shooting at the compound, Yasser Arafat's headquarters, the headquarters of the Palestinian Authority.

However, nothing like the sort of fighting we saw the day before, when the Israeli tanks went through the walls of the compound and essentially took it over.

Yasser Arafat's still in his office with a couple of his main advisers. There are still dozens of people in offices there in the compound in various buildings. However, the Israeli troops have occupied many of those buildings, and we did hear, as I said, a series of shots.

We're also told that they're hungry. They've asked the Red Crescent, the ambulance service, essentially the relief agency, to bring in bread, water, cheese, anything that they can.

Now, I also want to bring you up to date on some serious fighting overnight here. There was what can only be described as a fierce battle that raged for some hours in the center of Ramallah, a group of Palestinian fighters in a building, and the Israeli army all around, tanks, heavy machine guns. This was a scene of utter devastation once the shooting died down, and the building was on fire for hours.

There were several wounded that we saw brought out, and there were dozens of arrests made, probably nearly three dozen by our estimate. A very serious fight in the center of Ramallah.

Also today, the Israeli military has gone to at least two neighborhoods that we know of. They had by loudspeaker ordered every male between the ages of 15 and 45 to come out and be processed. Now, we witnessed one of these roundups. There were about 300 or 400 men and boys sitting on the ground in a big group. They were then brought forward, had to kneel, had their hands on their heads, then taken one by one into a school yard where they were interviewed.

We did see some of them released in the time we were there, but many of them have not been released, and it's not known how long they will be held for. One can only assume that the Israeli military has a list of suspects, and they are looking for those suspects one by one.

Also want to tell you that a second -- several buildings have been occupied here by the Israeli military in the time they've been here. We've seen soldiers in several private homes. But interestingly, a second media building has been occupied in the last couple of hours. One was occupied when the Israeli tanks rolled in, and another one has just been occupied.

We have unconfirmed reports also of injuries sustained by workers in that building, which houses a couple of media outlets. And I don't know if you can see, Miles, over my shoulder a fire has broken out in the last hour or so. We don't know exactly where that is, we've been trying to pinpoint it ourselves, and we've been out and about most of the day. We haven't found exactly where that is.

So still plenty happening here in Ramallah, Miles, and the siege of Yasser Arafat's home town continues.

O'BRIEN: Michael, the Israelis insist that Yasser Arafat is not a target, necessarily, and yet there have -- they do concede that shots have been fired in the direction of his apartment where he is holed up. How do you reconcile those two things? They just trading fire back and forth between Palestinian and Israelis? And given all that, what do you suppose the goal is here? His exile?

HOLMES: The -- well, certainly, that's the desire of many members of -- on the right wing of Ariel Sharon, the Israeli prime minister's cabinet. They do want him exiled. They say it very publicly. There are, however, more moderate elements in that cabinet who say it's not the right thing to do.

And it's felt by people even here that some sort of political compromise has resulted in the announcement by Ariel Sharon to, quote, "isolate," unquote, Yasser Arafat.

I'm not sure exactly whether the original plan was to enter the compound, but that's certainly obviously what occurred. There is -- the Israelis are still saying they do not want to harm Yasser Arafat. There is no indication that they directly have set about to do that, although certainly by -- judging by the exchanges of fire that were going on there for some hours yesterday, anyone in that compound was at risk.

I did speak with a doctor today, we interviewed him, who was in the compound for the last 24 hours or so, and he actually clarified for us something. Palestinian sources in there said on several occasions that Yasser Arafat's own officers were being fired upon, and we still have those sources.

You have to excuse the noise, there's a tank rumbling by down below.

Those sources maintain the office was fired upon. We can't get a good view of it from our various vantage points around the perimeter, but this doctor told us that that was not the case, that in fact his own private officers had not been fired upon, and this man was inside there. So some conflicting reports from Palestinian sources on that.

But as you say, he's still in a two-room office, he's got two of his closest aides with him, and Israeli tanks are at the bottom of the steps, Miles.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Michael Holmes in Ramallah, thank you very much.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, now to Jerusalem, a holy city under siege on this holy week.

Our John Vause is live there with the latest. John?

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Kyra.

Well, the latest is the Israeli reaction to that U.N. Security Council resolution. They've pretty much rejected it, saying the tanks and the troops will not be pulling out from Ramallah or any other Palestinian city any time soon. They say this is an ongoing military operation in the defense of Israel.

Now, a short time ago I spoke with Arye Mekel, who is the spokesman for the Israeli government from the foreign ministry. He outlined why the tanks would be staying put at least for now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARYE MEKEL, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESMAN: We went in there after Arafat refused all of the appeals by General Zinni. We went in there after they did what is now known as the Passover massacre, which was really one incident too many, really an assault on everything that is dear and we believe in, everything that is precious to the Jewish people.

Now, we went in there for a reason. We want Arafat to understand once and for all that terror will not work, that he must change his attitude.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Now, of course, that Israeli military action continuing today. This morning tanks, troops, and armored personnel carriers moving into the Palestinian city of Bet Jala. The troops and the tanks were there for a few hours, and they later withdrew. They actually invaded or occupied that city a couple of weeks ago and they were there for a few days, and then they withdrew after that.

The Israeli Defense Force says that action this morning was in response to what they say was a Palestinian mortar attack on the Israeli Jewish settlement of Gilaut (ph).

There are also reports today that the Israeli security cabinet will be meeting sometime today to discuss this ongoing military operation, and we've also spoken with a representative from the U.S. embassy regarding the trip here by the U.S. envoy, Anthony Zinni.

They tell us that that mission is ongoing, that there is still hope, that Anthony Zinni will continue to meet with, quote, "people," they wouldn't tell us exactly who, but he will continue to hold meetings. No plans for Anthony Zinni to meet or talk with Yasser Arafat, at least not yet.

As for the demeanor of General Anthony Zinni, we are told that he is calm and he is determined. By no means is he -- is there any despair. But his mission here at this stage certainly seems to be a very open-ended one -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: So John, Israel seems to be judging Arafat by his actions and not his words. So does that mean that there is absolutely no hope for any type of negotiation, at least at this point?

VAUSE: Both sides -- this is the incredible thing about this conflict -- both sides say they want a cease-fire, both sides say they want to negotiate. Yet this action continues to happen.

And what the Palestinians are saying is that, How do you expect Yasser Arafat to crack down on these militants while he's confined to just two rooms in his headquarters, in his compound in Ramallah? The Israelis, for their part, say Yasser Arafat has been encouraging the terrorists, and what they've done is isolated him. They closed him down, and now they want him to reassess.

It's all about bringing Arafat, in their words, "to his knees," force him to negotiate.

So a very difficult job for Anthony Zinni. But he remains hopeful, that's the incredible thing, that's the -- out of today's news, that General Anthony Zinni still sees some chance to get these parties together and try and get that cease-fire to work, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: John Vause, thank you so much.

Well, how will these developments affect the Middle East peace process? Marc Ginsberg, a former U.S. ambassador to Morocco, comes to us from our Washington bureau once again this morning. Good to see you, ambassador.

MARC GINSBERG, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO MOROCCO: Morning, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, I've got to be very point blank here and ask you, do you think Yasser Arafat is going to come out of this alive?

GINSBERG: Well, I'm going to try to be messianic. The issue at this point in time has to go beyond the personalities of Mr. Arafat and Mr. Sharon. There's two issues at stake, Kyra. The first is the need for Israeli security. Mr. Arafat is now viewed as a fellow traveler for terrorism among the Israeli population. He no longer could be entrusted, in my judgment, to secure belief by the Israelis that he's an able and adequate negotiating partner.

He clearly has rejected any calls for a cease-fire, I mean, tangible implementation of a cease-fire.

So what do we do? First, we need to have an international effort to try to get the terrorist elements removed from the West Bank. He won't do it himself, and the Israelis clearly are overreacting by isolating him. So we're going to have to do something about that.

Secondly, this administration seems -- or the Bush administration seems awfully reluctant, I don't know why, to reengage more forcefully in a political process. And if this means some tough love with the Sharon government to try to put a political process in place that, in effect, provides him some cover to deal with the most important issue, which is the settlements on the West Bank, then let's get to it, because we either let the situation continue to fester on the ground, but Mr. Arafat seems no willing and will not be under the gun of Israeli tanks to in effect do anything more than he was willing to do so far.

PHILLIPS: And Arafat's even been quoted on Al Jazeera TV, the quote here is that he hopes he will be a martyr in the Holy Land. Doesn't sound like a man of negotiation. Why isolate him? Why not just go in and capture him?

GINSBERG: Well, he is a symbol for the Palestinian people, and yet he's incited a great deal of violence. If you accept the proposition that he can't control the violence or is unwilling to control the terrorism, then intervening forces are going to have to be put on the ground to do it.

We've been removing to Guantanamo Bay the Taliban and the terrorists that we have captured. The same thing, we're going to have to start doing with the Arabs. If they're serious about their Saudi peace plan, they were courageous in stepping up to the plate with the European Union and with the United States, we're going to have to get the Hamas and Islamic Jihad and the Tanzim and the Al-Aqsa Brigades out of the West Bank.

Mr. Arafat then has to be offered something more than what the Israeli government was willing to offer him. The proposals that were on the table at Taba, at the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) before the intifada began are the best hope for both parties, since both parties claim they want a Palestinian state.

We're going to have to try to unravel this from the top and not from the ground.

PHILLIPS: Is a Palestinian state the solution?

GINSBERG: Oh, absolutely. There's no doubt that both -- the majority of Israelis recognize that a Palestinian state is necessary. Both parties agreed to that. The problem is, is that the Sharon government can't politically deal with the most important impediment to a Palestinian state, and that's the issue of settlements on the West Bank.

The Palestinians resent the settlements, and they're an impediment to the declaration of a viable Palestinian state. And unfortunately, Mr. Arafat has lost any credibility, justifiably so, with the Israeli population, because he is trying to bleed the Israelis the way that the Hezbollah forced the Israelis out of Lebanon. He sees this as a tactic.

He's bankrupt in that policy, and a new Palestinian leadership is necessary, in my judgment, to find a way to reconvince the Israelis that they are prepared to accept a two-state solution rather than a two-stage solution.

The Israelis are convinced that the Palestinians are no longer willing to live side by side peacefully. And so we're going to have to put some intervening forces on the ground here to cause these both parties to stop acting the way they are.

PHILLIPS: Former U.S. ambassador to Morocco Marc Ginsberg, thank you so much, sir.

GINSBERG: Sure, Kyra.

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