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CNN Saturday Morning News

Should Slave Descendants be Granted Reparations?

Aired March 30, 2002 - 08:18   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: We've been talking about this all morning and we're now going to talk about this new lawsuit that claims that three companies should be held financially accountable for the profits that they made off the backs of southern slaves hundreds of years ago.

Cindy Pena gives us some background on this story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CINDY PENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The lawsuit filed in federal district court seeks unspecified damages from companies that allegedly profited from the American Slave Trade, from the early 1600s until the end of the Civil War. New York attorney Diedria Farmer Paellman brought this case to court.

DIEDRIA FARMER PAELLMAN, PLAINTIFF: We are going to finally hold corporations accountable for the crimes against humanity that they've committed against my ancestors.

PENA: It was Paellman who, while in law school, discovered the Aetna Insurance Company had once issued policies covering slaves, but that their benefits went to slave owners. She is suing Aetna and hundreds of other companies, companies she claims benefited from slavery in industries that include textiles, tobacco railroads.

Attorney Roger Wareham says this case is no different from the reparations made by companies to Holocaust victims.

ROGER WAREHAM, ATTORNEY: They are the beneficiaries of a crime, that they are the beneficiaries of monies that were ill gotten, of monies that came from stolen labor.

PENA: Paellman's lawsuit proposes a fund to improve health, education and housing for African-Americans. But critics argue slave reparations were made in the 60s with programs for welfare and affirmative action.

JOHN MCWORTER, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-BERKLEY: What we see now is just new reparations. And I think that the idea is much (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on its face.

PENA: Railway giant, CSX, is one company being sued. In a statement, the company says a courtroom is the wrong setting for this issue and that the case should be dismissed.

(on-camera): Similarly, Aetna says it's a different company today and it does not believe a court would allow a lawsuit over issues that are more than 100 years old.

In Washington, I'm Cindy Pena.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, we've heard now the statements from the companies that are being sued. Now, we're going to talk more about this slave reparations lawsuit. It's stirring up a bit of controversy. We have a number of the players here with us this morning to talk about it. We are joined this morning from New York by Niger Innis of the Congress of Racial Equality and also in New York, Richard Barber, a plaintiff in the reparations suit, along with Diane Sammons, an attorney representing the plaintiffs.

Richard and Diane, let's begin with the two of you. Good morning.

RICHARD BARBER, PLAINTIFF IN REPARATIONS LAWSUIT: Good morning.

DIANE SAMMONS, ATTORNEY IN REPARATIONS LAWSUIT: Good morning, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Richard, why don't you tell us about your history, briefly, and why you believe in being a part of this lawsuit?

BARBER: Well, first of all, my family can be traced directly to slavery. My great-grandfather was born a slave and his daughter -- his daughter, Aunt Anna, I used to sit on her porch when I was growing up and she would talk about the fact of slavery, the hurt, the pain that she experienced. She was born in 1846 and died in 1947. And I was about seven, eight years old, so I remember those stories.

My father was a sharecropper. And tobacco has been a crop -- was a crop that built this country economically in terms of the wealth of this country. So personally, I can trace my family right back to slavery in my lifetime.

PHILLIPS: So Diane, how will the impact from this lawsuit outweigh the divisiveness that is already creating? I mean critics say this is opening up a very painful Pandora's Box?

SAMMONS: Well, I don't think it will be divisive. I think it's time to bring this country together. And I think this lawsuit will provide a mechanism to do that. It has been a scar on our past and the only way we're going to get past it is to open it up, lance the wound, talk about the issues, talk to corporations, have them be responsible for what they did, have them do the right thing and then move on with our history.

PHILLIPS: So Diane, do you think that these reparations from these companies would make a bigger impact than say affirmative action, the hundreds of government funded programs for community renewable programs, minority children, scholarships for college?

SAMMONS: Well, I think with regards to other programs, the other programs have been sponsored by the government and I think that gets into some issues with regards to reparations based upon what the government has been involved in. However, this is the first time -- and I repeat that, the first time that anybody has instituted a suit in an attempt to get reparations from corporations where corporations directly benefited from the slave trade.

And our theory is one of unjust enrichment. They should be forced to disgorge the profits and disgorge the benefits that they got from stealing people and stealing labor. It's that simple.

PHILLIPS: Niger Innis of the Congress For Racial Equality, let's get you in here. When we talk about the culpability and responsibility of slavery, don't we need to look at the entire international slave trade because then we're talking about Europeans, white Americans, the Arabs? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong.

NIGER INNIS, CONGRESS OF RACIAL EQUALITY: Sure. Not only Arabs, but also West African empires also benefited from the slave trade and were full partners in the slave trade, which of course, you know, the painful Pandora's Box -- I guess, you guys were quoting me because that's what I've been saying -- we have to be very careful here because we will bring up issues like the fact that West African countries or empires were involved in the slave trade.

In terms of those who are entitled to reparations, we're going to bring them questions such as, well, you know, a person like myself, I certainly have African-American history and can trace my ancestry to slaves, slavery in this country, but I also have Caribbean ancestry. Am I entitled to only half? You know, how about someone like the beautiful actress -- beautiful and talented actress Halle Berry, who just won an Academy Award? One of her parents is white. Is she entitled to only half reparations?

There will be fights in the street. There will be an internal civil war within black America not to mention creating a wedge between black America and the rest of America on the issue of reparations.

And here's the final point -- in the final analysis, we're -- it's not 1865, it's the 21st century. We're not a country that is just black and white anymore. There are a variety of people within this country. And there are variety of people that want to come into this country, blacks, whites, Latinos and Asians.

And is this issue of reparations going to give black America the competitive edge to move forward and maximize a country that we made a better place because of our sacrifices and struggles? And I think...

PHILLIPS: Diane...

INNIS: ... I think the answer to that is no.

PHILLIPS: I'm sorry, Niger. Yeah, I want Diane and Richard both to be able to respond to this because there has been a lot of questions about this victimization syndrome, Niger, that you have talked about. I know also that you refer to this as another one of these racial racketeering shakedowns. Pretty harsh words. Diane or Richard? Go ahead, Richard.

SAMMONS: Well...

BARBER: May I remind Mr. Innis that a welfare program is an entitlement program. A debt is something that is owed. We may our debts each month whether we want to or not. The wealth of corporation that would gain on the backs of slaves has not been paid.

INNIS: Well, sir, I would say that there would be a compelling legal argument. If we could jump into a time machine and have plaintiffs that were actual slaves themselves. But I don't know that we're -- that the case is legally compelling when you're talking about a 100 years after the fact.

BARBER: A debt that's not unpaid, that's not paid and remains a debt. Time is no consequence and the wealth of the major companies that was built on the backs of slaves, in my case, tobacco, that debt has not been paid and so, it remains an open wound in America.

INNIS: You know, again, I read the -- I just recently received the legal brief that was filed and I read the legal brief. And while it is certainly painful and it's a historical re-counting, it reads as a historical narrative not as a compelling legal brief that is, frankly, going to be taken very seriously by the courts. And what I'm afraid of is what happens when these courts look at this legal brief, which reads like a historical narrative, and throw it out? How many young, black Americans are going to be angry and irritated around this whole question and feel that something was taken away from them?

PHILLIPS: And...

INNIS: I...

PHILLIPS: I'm sorry. I wanted to throw something out too. Obviously, we've addressed the sensitive issue, definitely, among the black community. I'm also wondering too, these reparations, wouldn't we all have to end up paying for this in the end? I mean insurance company, railroad, banks; these are companies out to make a dollar no doubt. So are we going to see higher insurance premiums? Are we going to see more bank fees? Are we going to see higher costs for transportation? If indeed they pay out those reparations, couldn't everybody maybe feel the hit even more right now in the year 2002 -- Diane?

SAMMONS: I think -- I think it is possible that everybody will feel the hit, but isn't that what's supposed to happen in this particular case. If we stole -- if we stole money on the backs of slaves that were not paid for their services and were not paid for their hard labor, shouldn't we all pay a price for that, shouldn't we all be willing to come to the table and maybe take two cents less on our stocks and maybe pay a little bit more in a premium so that this right is taken care of?

INNIS: Yeah, but taken care of for whom? I mean who is going to -- who is going to be benefiting...

SAMMONS: Taken care of -- excuse me, taken care of -- taken care of for the descendants of the folks who put in that hard labor.

INNIS: Well...

SAMMONS: Exactly.

INNIS: Well, there's something unjust about that when the people themselves that were the direct victims of something like this are not going to be beneficiaries.

SAMMONS: Well, let me tell you...

INNIS: I mean, I think...

SAMMONS: ... they will be beneficiaries.

INNIS: ... it -- I think this is...

SAMMONS: And I think the perfect example of that is the Holocaust case. In the Holocaust case, there was a segment of the Holocaust case that dealt with reparations that went to descendants and that provides a perfect example and a perfect framework of exactly what we intend to do in this case.

INNIS: Well, I don't know the explicit details of the descendants of Holocaust victims receiving reparations, but I...

SAMMONS: Well, I think that...

INNIS: ... but I will say this though I know in most cases, in reference to the Holocaust and in reference to Japanese that were in turn, it was the direct victims themselves that received reparations.

SAMMONS: Well, and that is a misunderstanding.

PHILLIPS: Hold on.

INNIS: Not grandchildren.

PHILLIPS: Hold on, guys. Let's stay focused. Let's stay focuses on this case in itself. We've received so many e-mails. I want to try and get this discussion going in a variety of angles. This one comes from Mark Carter, he says, "Definitely not" does he agree with this lawsuit for slavery. "Our country has history good and bad, but that's what is history. Companies should not be liable for the evolution of our country. At some point, this has to end. If these companies nowadays are doing things that violate labor laws, then they need to have their butts kicked, but not for acts of the past. Those people need to look ahead and stop trying to collect on history."

A lot of very -- there's a very good point made here and that is African and American pulled such powerful positions in all parts of business and politics and teaching. Isn't it important to encourage that and look forward to the progress that has already been made, Richard?

BARBER: It is important. But it's also important, for example, to deal with an open wound of this nation. Those companies let them open up books. We want to see the financial records and I think that's all Diedria and I ask. Look at their records. And that wealth that can be traced back to slavery, I think, it seems to me that the descendants of that wealth should be paid for.

INNIS: You know what's so ironic is that many of the people, many of the -- I'm not disparaging my co-guests today, but many of the people like Jesse Jackson, Walter Fontloy (ph), some of their white liberal allies that are pushing this, you know, back in the 1960s when my father and so-called, back then, radicals pushed for issues like recompensation or reparations, they were vehemently opposed, and it certainly made a heck of a lot more sense back in the 1960s, when it was before affirmative action, before millions of dollars had been spent in poverty programs and in economic renewal programs, before the country had really turned around, before the rise of the black middle class to be for some type of reparations or some type of corrections to be made back then. But many of these very same people that are pushing it now, today, in 2002, were vehemently opposed to it back then. And there's some hypocrisy going on here.

BARBER: It is...

PHILLIPS: Let me get to this e-mail. I'm going to have you guys -- go ahead, Richard. Respond.

BARBER: You're responding to me, Dick Barber, and I'm saying me, as one African-American, who has suffered and our family has suffered, and I represent millions of other African-Americans, I'm just talking about me.

INNIS: Mr. Barber...

BARBER: I represent no one but me as a plaintiff.

INNIS: Mr. Barber, I not only feel your pain or can sympathize with your pain, I have the same pain. I have ancestors, too, that were slaves. So I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not disparaging you, but what I am saying, sir, is that you are being manipulated. I believe you are being manipulated...

BARBER: I resent that, first of all.

INNIS: ... by others who have another agenda as opposed to honoring our ancestors.

BARBER: Well, let me...

PHILLIPS: All right. Gentlemen, let me -- let me read this e- mail here. This is sort of along the lines of what you two are talking about right now. "Yes, families of former slaves should receive something. I believe the families of former slaves should receive money that the work that their ancestors did in the past. Because these people make six-figure salaries, make sure that these children have college funds. They are black families whose ancestors helped start these businesses with slave labor and cannot afford to send their children to college and that will always be the dark side in America history."

Now, Diane, you talked about the money if, indeed, these reparations are paid out, you were saying something about the money going into some type of fund, correct? These are not checks going...

SAMMONS: Correct. Exactly correct, Kyra. These will not be funds that go -- that will represent checks that will go to individuals. Rather, this will be a fund that will be created that the community will decide where it's best spent. We see that money now going in the area of education, in the area of health care and things like that.

INNIS: Managed by who? By Jesse Jackson and Johnnie Cochran? You've got to be kidding me.

SAMMONS: I think...

INNIS: I think the very notion of a fund is absurd and to me sounds like a scheme.

BARBER: Mr. Innis, it may be absurd, but more than 20 years, I proposed a fund. I have spent the last 20 years working this area, researching it. A fund makes sense, primarily because it deals with education and economic development and entrepreneurship to uplift our people.

INNIS: I think...

BARBER: In 1998 according to the Census, one out of every four African-Americans are in poverty, and so that poverty and the vestiges of slavery can be traced right back to today.

INNIS: That means three out of four black Americans are not in poverty. We have a thriving back middle class that is moving forward, and the question is: What is the best way to get that one quarter that is in poverty out of poverty? I don't believe it's by reinforcing victimization and shackling them to the past. I believe it's by looking forward to the future, by examining how it is that that middle class -- black middle class became a middle class and giving those individuals the opportunities and the values necessary to move forward.

I think an idea of a fund sounds absurd because, again, it will be like another program. The tragedy of the millions of dollars that were spent in these poverty programs in the 1960s is it didn't get to the right people, it didn't get to the people who deserved it. It was mismanaged. It was corruptly managed, and it went to the same type of people that are manipulating this phenomenon now.

PHILLIPS: Diane, one final thought...

BARBER: Mr. Innis, when I was growing up -- when I was growing up on a farm in North Carolina, a tobacco farm, I could not attend Duke Law School. A debt is a debt, regardless.

PHILLIPS: Diane, final...

BARBER: And so for you to -- and so you make that statement, for example, I totally disagree with you.

PHILLIPS: Richard, I am sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off. Diane, I just wanted you to be able...

SAMMONS: Yes.

PHILLIPS: ... to get one more thought in there. Unfortunately, we have to wrap this up. I wish we didn't have to. We could talk about this for the next five hours, I am sure. Go ahead, Diane -- final thought.

SAMMONS: Final thought is that African-Americans that as a result of what happened with these corporations that corporations benefited from stealing people, from stealing labor. And it's our belief that the corporations should -- should not hold onto those assets. It's a basic unjust enrichment claim. It does not necessarily mean -- it does not necessarily mean that we can't move forward on other fronts in the way Mr. Innis has suggested, but the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. Corporations should pay up and accept the responsibility for what they have done in the past, and I believe that there could be people appointed by the court that would take care of Mr. Innis' concerns about where that money will be spent and how it will be spent...

PHILLIPS: OK.

SAMMONS: ... so it is best utilized in the community.

INNIS: Black America, beware of the Trojan horse.

PHILLIPS: Niger Innis, Richard Barber and Diane Sammons, no doubt a very healthy exchange this morning. We thank you very much, all three of you, for being with us.

SAMMONS: Thank you.

INNIS: Thank you very much.

BARBER: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: We really appreciate it. All right.

BARBER: Thank you.

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