Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Saturday Morning News

Israel Consolidates Hold on Jenin, Nablus

Aired April 06, 2002 - 08:02   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Widespread gun battles are reported in the Middle East. It's some of the bloodiest fighting since Israel's incursions began just a week ago. Meanwhile, Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat remains under siege at his bombed-out compound in Ramallah.

For the latest now, we go live to Jerusalem, where CNN's Chris Burns is following the developments -- hi, Chris.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Kyra.

Some very intense house to house fighting in Nablus, which is the biggest city in the West Bank, as well as in Jenin, especially in its refugee camp, very winding, very narrow streets where Israeli tanks aren't very effective. It's more that the Israeli troops have to fight on their own house to house, backed up, however, by Israeli helicopter gunships, which are firing, providing air cover for them.

As that fighting goes on we have reports of five Palestinians killed in Jenin, five in Nablus, also in other areas and also two Israeli troops who were injured in Jenin. In Jenin, the Palestinians had erected cement blocks to try to prevent the Israelis from moving in. The Israelis went ahead and used bulldozers to bulldoze through homes to try to get in.

They're trying to consolidate their hold on those two cities even though President Bush has called on the Israelis to let up, take their foot off the gas and actually start to pull back their forces from this more than week old incursion, an incursion that is widespread, that is aimed at crushing out the suicide bombers that had left some 125 Israelis dead in March alone.

More violence also near Hebron. Two Palestinians killed during an Israeli incursion in the town of Yatah (ph). In Jenin, Israelis, I'm sorry, near Nablus, four Palestinians were killed laying explosives near an Israeli Army checkpoint. That's according to the Israeli forces near Jenin. Troops, Israeli, those Israeli troops shot and killed a Palestinian who had an ammunition belt, an explosives belt attached to him. They shot him and he exploded.

So continuing violence here, just very, very difficult to see where it's going. The Israeli government has said that they will continue with this until they can actually consolidate their hold and make sure that they have stamped out what they call the terrorist infrastructure. Will this end before Secretary of State Colin Powell makes his way over to the Middle East? He begins his trip tomorrow. That is all up for question. We'll have to see how that goes -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, Chris Burns live from Jerusalem, thank you.

Well, efforts by envoy Anthony Zinni to establish a cease-fire in the Mideast will be aided by Secretary of State Colin Powell. He leaves for the region tomorrow. The secretary told a news conference that Israel should start withdrawing from Palestinian areas without delay and Powell says there are no immediate plans for him to meet with Yasser Arafat. But he did not rule out such a meeting.

Well, taking a look at Secretary Powell's trip and the prospects for peace in the Middle East, we have both of our guests returning with us from both sides of the Mideast divide. Edward Abington, a consultant to the Palestinian Authority, joins us from Washington once again. And Israeli Consul General Alon Pinkas joins us from New York.

Gentlemen, good to see you again.

EDWARD ABINGTON, CONSULTANT TO PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY: Good morning.

ALON PINKAS, ISRAEL CONSUL GENERAL: Good to see you, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, as you can imagine, since our discussion last hour I've received many e-mails directing questions to both of you. And I'm going to give you a couple of those.

But first let's talk about Powell's trip, have both of you respond to his trip to the Mideast and whether you think he will meet with Yasser Arafat, is that important, to meet with Yasser Arafat, is it essential when he goes to the Middle East?

Let's start with you, Alon.

PINKAS: Well, I think the trip is important and we discussed this earlier, Kyra. A trip by a secretary of state, certainly in a time of crisis, is obviously important and obviously has a lot of potential to succeed, but also has the potential to fail.

Whether or not he should not, he should meet Arafat or he should not meet Arafat is totally up to him and from my understanding is also up to Arafat, who is up to his old antics again by saying he will meet Powell, he may not meet Powell.

I don't think the meeting has any significance in itself. What is important here is the agenda. And the agenda should be very clear. Yasser Arafat, if, indeed, he is still relevant in his own eyes, should stand up right now and in Arabic deliver a speech in which he renounces, denounces, condemns violence, says in no unequivocal terms that he will not tolerate, will not accept and will punish those responsible for terrorism, for suicidal and homicidal attacks, including those who are direct subordinates in his compound and in his organizations. I think that the secretary is going to carry that message to him. PHILLIPS: Mr. Abington?

ABINGTON: I find that, really, sort of strange. I talked to one of Arafat's advisers between the break. He pointed out that there's no electricity in the compound, very little water, very little food, that the Israelis shelled the compound again last nigh. Arafat could stand up and say anything and who would be listening?

He has no ability to transmit to the Palestinian people what he's saying.

I think there is another very critical point that's been overlooked by the news media. The Israeli Army in this campaign of the last eight days has systematically destroyed the Palestinian security services on the West Bank. They have destroyed their facilities. They have arrested policemen and security personnel. They've confiscated their weapons. Some have been released, but many are still in detention. A number of policemen have been killed and according to some eyewitnesses, these have been summary executions.

So the question is even if Arafat accepts the Tenet Plan, how does he have the instrumentalities to implement the security provisions. This is a major issue and a major problem that Powell is going to have to deal with when he gets there.

PHILLIPS: On that topic, this, Mr. Abington, this e-mail is directed to you, this question. Maybe you can respond. This comes from Jeff Aldrin (ph) and Sarasota. "I've always thought that one day Israel would go too far in its treatment of the Palestinians and the Israeli people would force a change of policy. My question now is who decides how far is too far?"

ABINGTON: Well, it's a difficult question. And, look, both sides have done some pretty terrible things to each other. The suicide bombings, I was there as a consul general and I saw these suicide bombings in Jerusalem. They're absolutely terrible. But by the same token, the Israeli occupation has been increasingly brutal. Palestinians feel that they have no future, that they are totally subject to the whims of the Israeli Army.

So both sides have created a dynamic in which each side is doing worse and worse things to each other. And I think that everyone agrees this dynamic has to be broken for the sake of Israelis and Palestinians.

PHILLIPS: Mr. Pinkas, this one is directed to you. A number of them, actually, we have for you. Julie Adams (ph) asked this question. "If the Israelis are the good guys, they have never allowed U.N. intervention. There is no other solution but to forcefully remove the illegal settlers and then protect the borders with international force."

PINKAS: Look, we did allow for U.N. intervention. In 1947 the Security Council, the U.N. Security Council decided on partition, Security Council Resolution 181. The Palestinian leadership, the Arab countries rejected that. It's not the first, we've always endorsed Resolution 242 from 1967 and then again Resolution 338. So the issue of U.N. intervention has always been something that was on the table and part of the mix or a factor in this.

But, look, I have to respond to something that Ed said, if I may. First of all, I resent the implication that suicide bombings and on the same token, by the same token, it's not the same token. There is no moral equivalency here. The equivalency here is between the arsonist and the firefighter.

Yes, it's about occupation, sure, yes, why not? So we sought to end the occupation. We called it Camp David. Ed knows the details of Camp David. Under the auspices of then President Clinton, Ehud Barak, then prime minister of Israel, laid down a comprehensive plan, a package of parameters, a package of elements and a package of principles. The Palestinians rejected it.

Now, there has to be a point where the Palestinians stop blaming everyone but themselves and stop assuming that no one is responsible -- everyone, I'm sorry, is responsible for their actions except themselves.

This is a bankrupt leadership. This is a corrupt leadership. There are no summary executions going on and what we're doing with the policemen, you know, it's not as if we're arresting Ramallah's finest. We are arresting people directly involved in acts of terror. There's nothing wrong with that. This is called a war on terrorism. We are not depriving Arafat of his ability to control. He still has that ability. Of course it's limited, but he inflicted that, those limits and those constraints on himself.

For a year and a half this man sat idle in that compound, which, incidentally, around that compound on 9-11 Palestinians were shooting in the air in joy over what happened here in New York or over what happened at the Pentagon in Washington. So we're not exactly talking about the Jefferson and Hamilton here. We're talking about ruthless, corrupt leadership.

PHILLIPS: One more e-mail, gentlemen, before we have to go. Ed, I'll get you to respond to this one. This one is from Marlon Morris (ph) in Salem. "By what right do you not only occupy the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but build Jewish settlements in the occupied zones as the U.S. and the U.N. have repeatedly asked them not to?"

ABINGTON: Well, I think that for many Palestinians that's the heart of the matter. The number of Israeli settlers doubled in the West Bank from 1993 when the Oslo process started until 2000. You know, the Palestinians didn't walk away from Camp David. They continued to negotiate throughout the reminder of the year and at Taba until early 2001.

In essence it was Sharon who walked away from the negotiations because he said I won't be bound by what the Israeli and Palestinian negotiators came close to agreeing on in early, in January 2001.

So it's not correct to say the Palestinians walked away from a deal. They did not walk away. They continued to negotiate. It is also factually incorrect that the Palestinian security services have not been destroyed. They have. And these are not people necessarily -- theses are not people who have carried out terrorism. These are people who have cooperated in the past very closely with Israel in preventing terrorism and Israel needs them in the future to prevent terrorism.

PHILLIPS: Edward Abington, consultant to the Palestinian Authority, and Israeli Consul General Alon Pinkas.

Gentlemen, thanks again.

ABINGTON: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com