Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Saturday Morning News
Interviews With Mike Pence, Harold Ford
Aired April 13, 2002 - 07:47 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, most Americans are not very optimistic about Secretary of State Colin Powell's peace trip to the Middle East. That's according to a new CNN/"Time" poll. Only six percent say Powell's mission will likely lead to a peace agreement. Fifteen percent expect major progress. A whopping 52 percent expect minor progress and 23 percent say they expect no progress at all.
When asked if Secretary of State Colin Powell should meet with Yasser Arafat, most people say yes. Seventy-five percent of the people polled think a Powell-Arafat meeting would be a good idea. Nineteen percent say it wouldn't.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Keep in mind that poll was conducted before yesterday's suicide bombing in Jerusalem, which prompted Powell to postpone his meeting with Arafat. There's no word when or if Powell will meet with Arafat.
And that brings us to our next guests. Joining us from Indianapolis, Indiana, Republican Congressman Mike Pence. He is against a Powell-Arafat meeting. And from Orlando, Tennessee Congressman Harold Ford. He is a Democrat who is in favor of the talks. And, folks, we know that Orlando is not in Tennessee. He's just visiting there.
All right, good to have you both with us, folks.
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Let's start with you, Mr. Pence, since we introduced you first. Why, in fact, should there not be a meeting?
PENCE: Well, like many other members of Congress, frankly, Miles, on both sides of the aisle, I had some concerns about what appeared to be a shift in the administration's policy. The president moving back to what appeared to be more like Clinton era policies of moral equivocation.
O'BRIEN: How so?
PENCE: Well, the president gave a great Rose Garden address. I loved 95 percent of it. But then there was that part where we were again beginning to extract concessions from Israel when all that Israel is doing now, Miles, is precisely what we've done in Afghanistan and precisely what we may have to do elsewhere around the globe, and that is, to use the president's word, routing out terrorism where it is.
In the last two weeks, Israel has now managed to experience nearly four times the amount of casualties over the last 18 months that the United States experienced on September the 11th due to these suicide bombings. We ought to be backing Israel. That ought to be unequivocal and particularly after the suicide bombing of yesterday. Colin Powell was right to cancel that meeting.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Ford?
REP. HAROLD FORD (D), TENNESSEE: Let me be clear, I'm not a believer that Israel has done anything wrong up to this point in terms of defending itself. I support a sovereign and democratic and free Israel.
The question here is whether or not Secretary Powell should take steps while in the region to not only allay some of the concerns of our moderate Arab friends, but to try to bring our message to Chairman Arafat in person that he should condemn the unacceptable attacks on Israelis, that he should take steps to punish those perpetrators.
My friend Mike is absolutely right in many ways. But here's the challenge. We have a responsibility, I think, in large ways to help bring peace and security and stability to the region. And we can't do it with the kind of timidity and tentativeness that some in the Congress have expressed. This is a constantly evolving and fluid situation. I think your previous guests, Perry and Ginsberg, touched on many of the salient issues, and frankly agreed more than they disagreed.
And I would disagree with my friend Michael on one other level. This has nothing to do with Bill Clinton or George Bush. This is a dispute and a dispute between two people that have endured for years, for hundreds, if not thousands of years. So I applaud this president, as I applauded the last president. I would hope that we could lay aside the partisan differences and even our efforts to take pot shots at the former president. He tried. This president is trying. And I trust Secretary Powell's judgment. If he believes it's right to meet with Chairman Arafat while there, I trust that he will do the right thing. If he determines that it's the wrong thing to do, I trust his judgment on that, as well.
PENCE: Well, but let me...
O'BRIEN: Mr. Pence...
PENCE: Let me also say there...
O'BRIEN: Can I, let me just interject very quickly and feel free to respond. But I'd like to just add this one point. Help us define what the U.S. role should be here. Is the U.S. an honest broker for peace or is the U.S. a staunch ally of Israel, there to help Israel stake its claim?
PENCE: Well, nobody loves a debate with Harold more than me. Let me take issue with his point and then address your important question.
O'BRIEN: OK. Fair enough. Fair enough.
PENCE: The suggestion that the United States taking a bold stand for our ally since 1948, Israel, in her hour of need as being an act of timidity is something that I and many Republicans and Democrats on Capitol Hill would reject. It takes courage for the United States of America to stand boldly with Israel as she does what must be done, routing out the terrorist element within the West Bank and maybe elsewhere to protect her civilians.
But the proper role, it seems to me, Miles, that's the real question here. I believe the proper role should not be, as one of your earlier guests suggested, speaking on behalf of the Palestinian movement, that the United States should be neutral in this matter. Miles, we're not neutral in this matter.
Israel is our ally. The United States of America, more than any other nation in the world, reestablished Israel in her historic homeland. We have been her greatest ally. She, in many ways, has been our greatest ally in the world and certainly in that part of the world. We should stand with Israel. But we should also stand, after Israel has defeated her enemies here, the enemies of peace, we ought to stand for a just outcome as Israel's ally.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Ford, is that the proper U.S. role?
FORD: You know, Israel is our ally, will remain our ally, as was stated yesterday, forever. And I support and you won't find a stronger support, in many ways, of our commitment to Israel to a free and independent Israel.
But we have a challenge here, Mike, and I think it's broader than what you and I might be talking about here and it's beyond -- you and I certainly don't have the answers. If we did, we would have obviously injected by now.
I think Secretary Powell's mission there in the Middle East at this point is to try to bring the parties back to the table. The only thing that is disturbing a little bit about some of the views expressed by my friend and by some in the Congress is there doesn't seem to be any perspective on where we go after we do some of the things that you state. I mean what I'd like to see, and I think most Americans, and, for that matter, most around the world, including our allies in Europe and our other Arab allies, is some framework for a secure Israel to come about and an independent state for the Palestinians.
And how we get there is really the question. And, again, Mike, this is not a, not really a moment for us to disagree flagrantly, as we sometimes do in the Congress. It's really a moment to try to figure out how we can get to that point. And I just happen to believe that Secretary Powell, if he sees fit and sees an opportunity to convince and to convey, rather, to Chairman Arafat that he has to condemn these attacks, he has to condemn those who are, these organizations and operations that are perpetrating these homicide or suicide bombings, and he has to find ways to punish those perpetrators.
I think Secretary Powell should deliver that message if he sees fit to meet with Mr. Arafat. He is the elected leader, for better or for worse, of the Palestinians and hopefully the Palestinians will see fit at some point to elect, to select a new leader.
O'BRIEN: All right, unfortunately, Mr. Pence...
FORD: I'm in Orlando for the Democratic Party convention, I might add. I don't want my constituents to think that I'm in Orlando...
O'BRIEN: No, no, that was kind of a cheap shot.
FORD: Mr. O'Brien.
O'BRIEN: I apologize. I apologize. He's in Orlando for good reasons. He didn't leave Tennessee for any bad, nefarious reasons, folks.
I'll tell you what, unfortunately we have to take a break. I don't know why we have to take a break, but we're going to take a quick break and when we come back, Mr. Pence, we'll let you pick that up. I also want to ask the question when we come back, perhaps both parties over there don't really want peace. Stay with us for that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: All right, let's get back to our debate. We sort of hit it in midstream there. Representatives Mike Pence and Harold Ford of Indiana and Tennessee respectively. Mr. Ford is in Orlando on business, constituents, there for the Democratic gathering.
Let's pick it right up where we left off, Mr. Pence, because you were just about to make a great point and I know you've got it right on the tip of your tongue.
PENCE: Well, it's just the question of U.S. policy and the administration's policy. I appreciate Harold's comments and looking to the future, but I think it's important to acknowledge the efforts of the past.
Number one, a few weeks ago I thought Vice President Cheney had it right when he said he was more than willing to sit down with Yasser Arafat as soon as the suicide bombings ended.
Miles, as you said earlier, there's a growing mountain range of evidence that directly ties Yasser Arafat to these bombings. Asking him to condemn them publicly is not a bridge too far, it seems to many of us, as a precondition to meet with the leaders of our government.
And I want Harold to understand, as he's down for that important Democratic Party event, I applaud the effort that President Clinton made at Camp David and the extent to which the Clinton administration went to bring these two sides together. But the difficulty is, Miles, to answer your outgoing question there, I believe Israel wants peace here, but it appears as though Arafat and the extremist elements within the West Bank want victory, and you can't reconcile peace and victory.
O'BRIEN: You could make a case that both don't really want peace. Ariel Sharon, after all, is not, did not build a career on being a pacemaker. He built a career on waging war.
Mr. Ford, are these the wrong two leaders, as our previous panelists suggested, to bring peace to the region?
FORD: They are the elected leaders of the Israelis and Palestinians respectively and our job is not to elect or select leadership, but in many ways to try to create an atmosphere for a meaningful dialogue about peace and security, a sovereign and secure Israel and an independent state for the Palestinians.
This marks one of the few moments in which you have modern Arab nations and even a proposal, quite frankly, a necessitated or resurrected proposal on the part of Prince Abdullah and a plan advanced by Senator Mitchell that in a lot of ways provides that framework.
I would agree with most, if not everything, my friend from Indiana has said. This is not necessarily an important Democratic gathering here in Orlando, but I was invited down.
Nonetheless, the larger point is that Secretary Powell will make, I think, the right decision about whether to meet with Chairman Arafat or not and if he deems fit or determines that it's the right thing to do, I'll trust his judgment, as I've trusted this administration's judgment up to this point.
O'BRIEN: Representatives Harold Ford and Mike Pence, Democrat of Tennessee, Republican of Indiana respectively, thank you both for being with us this morning.
FORD: Thank you for having us.
PENCE: Thank you, Miles.
O'BRIEN: We appreciate your time.
PENCE: You bet.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
