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CNN Saturday Morning News

Interview With Richard Murphy

Aired April 20, 2002 - 08:03   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: And that's where we'll start this hour, in the Middle East. The United Nations will send a fact-finding team to Jenin in the West Bank. Israelis and Palestinians angrily dispute how many people died there during Israel's military sweep.

Let's bring in CNN's Jerrold Kessel in Jerusalem to tell us more about it.

Hello again, Jerrold.

JERROLD KESSEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Kyra. And the search for people for people who might have been killed, the hopeless search, really, for survivors under the rubble that's been left of dozens and more of the buildings in that camp which were destroyed either during or subsequently to the Israeli military operation there -- that search continuing with very delicate probing because there is concern that some of the bodies may have been booby-trapped or that the buildings may have been booby-trapped.

Now, this search is going on by the Palestinian themselves and by international aid agencies which have moved in there to support them, this after the withdrawal of the Israeli forces by early yesterday.

And among those who are visiting the site of the Jenin refugee camp, that contentious place where some of the fiercest battles in the three-week Israeli offensive took place, was U.S. undersecretary of state William Burns. He was there this morning. And during the time he spent there, Mr. Burns said quite pointedly, "I think what we're seeing is a terrible human tragedy. It's obvious that what happened here in the Jenin camp," said William Burns, "has caused enormous human suffering for thousands of Palestinians."

And I think the fact that he is stressing the question of human suffering more than anything else is a pointer because you'll recall that when Secretary of State Colin Powell was here, he fobbed off the entreaties of the Palestinians that he go to the camp to assess the situation there. That was when there was the heart of this Palestinian claim and demand for an investigation into what they said was a massacre by the Israeli troops.

Now, since then, we've had this important development last night at the U.N. Security Council, where the -- both sides have agreed -- literally, the Israelis almost preempting that U.N. vote by saying they would agree to have a fact-finding mission, and that has facilitated the arrival here shortly, we believe, of a fact-finding mission sent by the United Nations.

And the fact that both the Israelis and the Palestinians are agreeing on one thing is quite a rare thing these days, but that is, in fact, the situation, the Israelis saying they will give every assistance. They say they have nothing to hide. The Palestinians saying they hope this will promote their argument that, indeed, Israel committed some war atrocities and that people will need to face further investigation and perhaps be put on trial before international war tribunals. So both sides, in a sense, pleased that there'll be this kind of fact-finding mission, but from their different points of view.

Kyra?

PHILLIPS: All right, our Jerrold Kessel, live in Jerusalem. Thank you so much.

Richard Murphy served as an assistant secretary of state for the first President Bush. He's currently a senior fellow for the Middle East and the Council on Foreign Relations. Ambassador Murphy joins us from New York this morning to talk more about the Middle East crisis.

Ambassador, great to see you again.

RICHARD MURPHY, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: Thank you, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: We'll talk about the Jenin situation, but I first want to just for a moment get back to Powell's trip. And there was so much publicity about how this trip was a failure and there wasn't a lot to show for his efforts. But you take a very different approach to that, correct?

MURPHY: I don't consider the trip a failure. It came at a point of very high tension. I think the trip was a must. It was essential he go there, try to lower the level of violence, and to keep escalation from occurring. And I think that on the question of escalation outside of the Israeli/Palestinian confrontation, he did have an achievement. The border has gone quiet once again between Lebanon and Israel. Hezbollah is withholding any further military activity for now.

Within Israel, they are -- and the West Bank, the Israelis are bound and determined to finish the plan of going through each major center systematically, arresting and acting against the individuals they consider terrorists. Now, the level of violence, certainly of tension, is still very high. Violence is down perhaps because of that massive military action.

PHILLIPS: So do you think that Secretary Powell truly put down some markers that no other U.S. official has been able to do thus far?

MURPHY: When I read his statement, his final statement in Jerusalem as he left the Middle East, the bluntness with which he addressed the issue of settlements and occupation from the Israeli side, that these must end, as the president had said in some of his earlier statements, was the most direct statement I've heard from a senior American official. In that context, he wasn't just, of course, talking to the Israelis. He was talking to the Palestinians about the need to end terror, as well.

PHILLIPS: Now, this relationship with Arafat and Saddam Hussein -- do you think that Saddam Hussein needs to be taken out of power and that situation needs to be dealt with in Iraq prior to anything being quelled in the Middle East?

MURPHY: No, I don't think so. I think that the administration administration's concerns about Saddam Hussein's regime are valid. But I don't see the direct relationship between his continuance in power and working out a solution between the Palestinians and Israelis. In terms of time, it may happen that a move against Saddam is made. No one has any idea when that will be made. It may precede a settlement between Israelis and Palestinians, but I don't think it's a cause-and-effect relationship.

PHILLIPS: All right, back to Jenin now, the United Nations Security Council saying, indeed, it's important to investigate the attack on Jenin. What does this say about the Israeli military?

MURPHY: I suggest we wait to hear what the U.N. representative comes out with. The Israelis have affirmed from the very beginning that their move took into full account the need to avoid civilian casualties. They're asserting there were only 48 deaths, at this point in time. Let's see what the investigation proves. Forty-five of those, they say, were uniformed personnel fighting the Israelis. Three were wearing explosive belts, I believe. So they're only really acknowledging three non-military related -- non-activist related Palestinian deaths.

It's good that they've opened up to an investigation. It's certainly forced all the more vigorous action in the Security Council, one which the United States might have had to veto, which would not have been in our interests or in the interest of calming the situation out there.

PHILLIPS: And there's the issue here of rebuilding security forces, something that must be dealt with, correct?

MURPHY: Well, that is the case, that it's not -- there's no point in simply haranguing Arafat about the need to act forcibly against terror if his security forces have been destroyed. And they certainly have been heavily affected. Many deaths have occurred among the police. They became a direct target, in many instances, of the Israelis on the presumption, apparently, that they were acting themselves as terrorists.

But if you don't have a security force, what can you do beyond making a speech and passing word that violence should end?

PHILLIPS: And you're dealing with a lot of damage here and a lot of desires on both sides for revenge. This is going to be a tough thing to tackle. MURPHY: I worry about the mind-set on both sides. On that account, yes, Jenin has already entered Palestinian history as a massacre. The young generation is going to have that firmly implanted. The Israelis before Jenin, before this conflict, were very apt to refer to the Palestinians -- and these are Israeli political leaders -- in highly derogatory terms. These are vipers, these are scorpions, these are crocodiles, these are people or creatures from another planet, somehow subhuman.

Now, that mind-set is a major obstacle to getting the two peoples together in the longer run. That doesn't mean the negotiators can't have some achievements in the meantime. But the wounds are very deep on both sides.

PHILLIPS: And an even bigger challenge dealing with terrorism, not being a noble act. Ambassador Richard Murphy, thank you, sir, very much.

MURPHY: Thank you.

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