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CNN Saturday Morning News

Interview With 'TIME' Magazine's Bob Sullivan

Aired April 27, 2002 - 07:42   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's turn it now to Bob Sullivan, a senior editor with "TIME" magazine. We'll talk a little bit more on the mounting pressure on Cardinal Law and on the crisis in the Catholic Church in general. He's in our New York bureau. Good to have you with us, Mr. Sullivan.

BOB SULLIVAN, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Nice to be with you.

O'BRIEN: Let's talk about fund-raising for a moment. Every year in Boston, Cardinal Law holds a garden party, which is a big fund- raiser. It's been canceled this year. That's a big deal, isn't it?

SULLIVAN: It has, and the people who told him to cancel it were the people who are supposed to come. I mean, when he went to the financial community about the garden party, they said don't be silly. You know, we can't have that this year and obviously some of them are just not going to contribute. I think that that's ultimately what's going to bring Cardinal Law down.

O'BRIEN: So, what you're saying is, the lack of money, or fund- raising, is what ultimately will bring down Cardinal Law? Is that what the Vatican is listening to?

SULLIVAN: I don't think the Vatican necessarily is listening to that, but I think what's going to happen is -- I mean, if he has any conscious at all, when it comes down to the fact that his congregants are saying we're not giving to you because you're in that job, and people weigh the fact that because Cardinal Law is still the Archbishop of Boston, they have to close five more schools or the homeless aren't being helped by Catholic Charities. I mean, he's going to have to go. Because...

O'BRIEN: Well, let's talk about this whole issue of trying to compensate the victims of these terrible crimes, for lack of a better term. They deserve to be compensated; where's that money going to come from, especially if you get into this conundrum of people not willing to contribute because that money might go for that very fact.

SULLIVAN: Up here, where I live, at church last week they opened the contribution last week and four of them had notes in them saying I'm not going to contribute any more, as long as -- and this was about Cardinal Egan -- as long as Cardinal Egan's -- if that stuff starts happening there are going to have to be changes because people just -- if they're not sure where their money is going, if they think it's going to settle these cases instead of going to the poor or to help people, they're just not going to give.

O'BRIEN: All right, but let's -- first of all, before we talk a little bit about that -- four envelopes doesn't make a mass movement, necessarily. Do you think there's more at work here?

SULLIVAN: Four envelopes in one small church can -- oh, well, certainly there's more at work. Look at what happened in Chicago just yesterday.

All the people from the North Shore there -- some very rich Catholics -- they formed their own organization and they said that they're going to withhold funds, or they're going to give it to their own charities to make sure that it's going to the right people, instead of giving it to the Church to disperse because they're not sure of what the Church is going to use it for.

O'BRIEN: Well, let me ask you this, and this is a difficult question, I know. But isn't it a bit hypocritical of the Catholic flock to admit and recognize that there are victims among them, and not be willing to help them out? Which is what they're saying by putting those notes in those envelopes.

SULLIVAN: I don't think it is hypocritical. I think they want to know -- they want to have some accountability by the church. They want to see -- you know, they want them to open the books, basically. They know that these people are going to be helped one way or another. The church is going to be giving...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: But where's the money going to come from? The money's got to come from the collection plate...

SULLIVAN: ...Dallas didn't go bankrupt. No archdiocese has gone bankrupt. And until one does. I mean, Boston keeps saying they're going to go bankrupt but there's no evidence of it.

These people are getting paid and getting helped. What the congregants want is for their money to be going where they think it's going. If they put a dollar into the poor box, they want it to be going to the poor.

O'BRIEN: Bob let me ask you this. Do you think it's possible, and am I being too far down the road or too fanciful to conjure up some scenario where there's a schism with the American Catholic Church, in some way?

SULLIVAN: I don't think people have lost their faith. So, I think that the Catholic Church is going to maintain. I think what's going to happen -- I think what has to happen is -- I was very disappointed in one particular thing in the cardinal's statement from Rome. And that was that they didn't hold themselves accountable.

Again, it was about the priests, it was about the priests, it wasn't about the administration. These administrators have done one horrible job over the last several years with this particular thing. If they worked for a corporation -- I know the church doesn't see itself that way -- they would be gone.

I think if there's a schism, it's going to be between the leadership of the Catholic Church and the body of the Catholic Church. I think in the next few years a lot of these people who are in charge are going to have to disappear just because they've done such a -- a really reprehensible job of handling this case.

O'BRIEN: Help me to understand this, before we get away here. The inherent contradiction of having the Catholic Church endorse a one strike and you're out policy. That absolutely flies in the face of every Catholic teaching I'm familiar with, which is there is always the possibility of forgiveness.

SULLIVAN: Well, I think because of what the pope said. You know, I think the cardinals did not do well in Rome this week. I think the pope did pretty well. His was a very strong statement and he aligned himself, in his third paragraph, well before he ever got to the priest's, with the victims. Which is something that the cardinals have not done over the last several months. They've been talking about their body, their priests, before they get to the victims -- and even them it's only with some arm-twisting.

The pope aligned himself with the victims, and I think what that -- and called it a crime, and called it an abominable sin -- I think that's the statement that he's trying to get through to the cardinals, saying, like, I know there's Catholic teaching, I know there's forgiveness and everything else. This -- what's going on here or what has gone on -- is so beyond the pale. And the victims have been so grossly victimized, that we have to deal with it on a whole different level.

Bob Sullivan is with "TIME" magazine; he's been covering the crisis in the Roman Catholic Church. Thanks for being with us this morning, Bob.

SULLIVAN: Nice to have been with you.

All right, our pleasure.

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