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CNN Saturday Morning News

Shooting, Explosion Rock Bethlehem

Aired May 04, 2002 - 07:02   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Live now to the holy city of Bethlehem and our top story, where there were two separate violent incidents this morning, one a deadly shooting, the other an explosion.

CNN senior international correspondent Walter Rodgers joins us from near Manger Square -- Walt.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Miles.

Negotiations to end the deadly standoff in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity are now going on at the highest levels, according to Palestinian sources. That implies Yasser Arafat is now involved in these negotiations, again according to sources within the church, and one Palestinian with whom I spoke inside the Church of the Nativity, which is, of course, the traditional site of Jesus' birth, said he expected this face-off to end in the not-too-distant future.

An Israeli source also confirmed that negotiations to end this face-off are continuing, and he said, quote, "We hope the Palestinians have the wisdom and rationality to bring this to a peaceful conclusion." That was the Israeli army spokesman, Olivier Rafovitz (ph).

There was a mysterious explosion not too far from the Church of the Nativity this morning. The Israelis say the explosion occurred about 500 meters away from the church. There was some glass broken. One Israeli soldier with whom we speak said, quote, "It was a TNT laboratory," the implication to that being that perhaps there was -- the Israelis had discovered a bomb-making factory, Palestinian bomb- making factory. That is not confirmed, it is just one soldier's conclusion as to the explosion.

There was more deadly sniper fire from the Israeli positions today. An Israeli sniper shot and killed another Palestinian in the church compound. That brings to a total of upwards of half a dozen, perhaps even seven, Palestinians who have been shot there in the last week or so, as the Israelis try to persuade the Palestinians to emerge from that church.

One Palestinian with whom I spoke inside the church, Tony Salman (ph), said this morning, "We are all eager to go home." That eagerness to go home, however, is not going to be enjoyed by all of the Palestinians in the church, because there are at least 25, perhaps 30, hard-core Palestinians in that church who, according to the Israelis, are going to -- are going -- they're going to insist that these people be tried and go to prison. The Israelis allege these are hard-core Palestinian fighters from Hamas, the Islamic Jihad, and the al-Aqsa Brigades -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Walt, is there any kind of dialogue between the Israelis and the Palestinians in this, any communication whatsoever?

RODGERS: Yes, indeed there is, but the focus has shifted from dialogue here in Ramallah -- in Bethlehem to Ramallah, because Yasser Arafat having been freed from his confinement at his headquarters in Ramallah is now overseeing whatever negotiations there are. And the negotiations are ongoing, as I say, according to both the Israelis and the Palestinians, and one Palestinian officials told me not too long ago, earlier this morning, that they are going on at the highest levels.

So the Palestinians clearly inside the church say they want this ended. The Israelis say they want it ended. It now appears that the terms will be negotiated by Mr. Arafat's top lieutenants -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Walter Rodgers, our senior international correspondent, joining us from near the Church of the Nativity. Thank you very much.

Let's get some more context and insight on all this. Joining us from New York to talk about the peace effort in the Middle East is Ambassador Richard Murphy, former assistant secretary of state. He is a senior fellow for the Middle East at the Council on Foreign Relations.

Ambassador Murphy, good to have you with us once again.

AMB. RICHARD MURPHY, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Let's talk first of all -- Walter Rodgers was talking about Yasser Arafat being freed. Significant development, clearly. Yasser Arafat, it seems to me, does better when he's under siege, however. Does he lose some of his leverage, if you will, now that he's a free man?

MURPHY: Well, his popularity certainly went up when he was the prisoner in his own compound in Ramallah. Now that he's out, he has the tough job ahead for him of regaining control over the violence and stopping the violence as quickly and as far as he can go, because that's the American demand, I think the international demand on Arafat at this moment.

O'BRIEN: Well, for precisely the same reasons, he is perhaps more popular under siege. You could probably make the case that he has very little motivation to end the violence. He is, after all, to his core a person who has waged war on behalf of his people, and in the absence of that, does he have a reason for existence?

MURPHY: Well, that's been a question for some years, Miles. Is he a revolutionary leader who cannot make the transition to statesman? Is he going to go down in history just as a man who fought for Palestinian independence, or a man who can really carry that community forward to lead a viable state living in peace side by side with Israel?

O'BRIEN: Let's talk a little bit about the Bush administration plans discussed this week, some quite surprised by it, to propose an international conference to discuss the Middle East, perhaps in the next couple of months, the summit.

Do you think, first of all, that's a good idea?

MURPHY: Well, I'll tell you frankly, I was surprised by the timing. I didn't expect it. It was only at the first of this week that there was a comment from the White House that an international conference would be premature. As the -- as it's been now explained, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and clarified at least to some degree, it means getting parties together at the level below the chief of state level, the foreign minister level, and trying to clarify the principles, the basis on which everyone can move ahead towards peace.

It is an American idea -- idea -- not an American idea, but an American effort to take the lead now and keep the momentum going that Arafat's release has started.

O'BRIEN: It -- the whole structure of it, though, leads many to wonder how effective it would be, calling for a large meeting involving numerous parties. Do you think -- you as a diplomat, I suspect would be a little bit skeptical about how successful a meeting like that might be.

MURPHY: Well, it's going to be preceded by a lot of consultation on a private, confidential basis, one on one, so to speak, to try to see who is -- first of all, who is going to participate, what's the basis of their participation going to be? There -- you know, there are some U.N. resolutions out there from the Security Council going back to 1967 and some affecting refugees even earlier.

But on what basis are the talks going to proceed? Who will be invited? Even that isn't clear at this point.

O'BRIEN: But is it safe to say the larger the meeting, the more rhetoric gets in the way of any real constructive discussion?

MURPHY: Well, the larger the meeting, the more preparation there has to be, so that the rhetoric is taken for -- understood for what it really is, you know, making a nice public stand, but there is a solid basis of agreement on which to come out of the conference.

O'BRIEN: Well, is there enough time, then?

MURPHY: Well, as one Israeli said the other day, you know, how this is going to come out eventually in terms of an actual agreement is -- the contours are pretty well known. Now all that we need to know is what's the body count before we get there.

O'BRIEN: That's a grim statement. MURPHY: It is grim, but it's realistic.

O'BRIEN: All right. Let's talk briefly -- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon will visit Washington next week, King Abdullah of Jordan. Give us some fly-on-the-wall insights as to -- well, put it this way, how would you advise the president? What would you tell the president to tell Ariel Sharon right now?

MURPHY: Well, it'll be the president's first meeting since the announcement that we are going ahead on the base -- towards an international conference. And he will be, I think, putting some pointed questions to Sharon, and -- as well as to Abdullah about how they see such a conference proceeding, what they think it can accomplish, and start to put together an American scenario for guiding that conference.

We're much more open these days to -- apparently to participation, helping us from Europe, from the secretary general of the U.N., and from Russia. But how many new ideas do they have to give? At this moment, it's going to be listening to Sharon and Abdullah.

O'BRIEN: Seems as if most of the Europeans, most of their ideas are very critical of the U.S. anyway.

MURPHY: Well, they are. They feel that we have been too biased towards Israel in the past, and I think they would like to bring to the table some ideas of how to achieve a balance which would lead to an agreement for the improvement of the position on both sides, Israeli and Palestinian.

O'BRIEN: All right. Briefly, before we get away, King Abdullah of Jordan coming. It was the Madrid conference in '91 which achieved peace between Israel and Jordan. Is -- does this mean that what is being set up will be something that will be equated with a Madrid or Oslo, or does that set expectations too high for the administration?

MURPHY: Well, not necessarily like either one. They were both very important conferences. It's fashionable these days to say they're dead, they didn't work. But there was -- there is the Jordanian-Israeli peace treaty. That was progress. And I think with Abdullah, he's going to be very much involved with that, over perhaps 80 percent of his population being Palestinian in origin. So his views will be taken very seriously into account.

O'BRIEN: Ambassador Richard Murphy, former U.S. -- assistant U.S. secretary of state and with the Council on Foreign Relations now, thanks as always for your insights, we appreciate it.

MURPHY: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Thanks for getting up early on our behalf.

MURPHY: Thank you.

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