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CNN Saturday Morning News
Interview With Mark Perry, Marc Ginsberg
Aired May 11, 2002 - 07:09 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Israeli troops have pretty much wrapped up their offensive in the West Bank. They pulled out of Bethlehem yesterday.
For more perspective on the developments in the region, I'm joined by former U.S. ambassador to Morocco Marc Ginsberg. He's in Washington. And joining us from Jerusalem is longtime Mideast analyst Mark Perry.
Gentlemen, good to see you again.
MARK PERRY, AUTHOR, "A FIRE IN ZION": Good morning, Miles.
MARC GINSBERG, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO MOROCCO: Good morning, Miles.
O'BRIEN: Good morning.
Mark Perry, let's begin with you, since you're in the region there. The possibility of some sort of military action by the Israeli Defense Forces in Gaza, what is the thinking there?
PERRY: Well, I think that Wolf Blitzer was absolutely right in his report. There has been a rethinking on the part of the Israeli government of the cost of this operation, and it would be very costly for the Israeli military. And there doesn't seem to be a good reason to do it right now.
Frankly, the Israeli military is exhausted from their operations in Nablus and in Bethlehem, and these would have to be regular troops that went into Gaza, and it would be a very tough fight.
O'BRIEN: Well, Marc Ginsberg, I suppose there is some good reason to do it from the Israeli perspective, in the sense that Gaza is very densely populated, filled with these camps, which are harboring terrorists. Known terrorists have come out of these camps. Why wouldn't Israel want to pursue terrorism there?
GINSBERG: Inevitably, Gaza's going to have to be dealt with. It is the home of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. It is condensed. It's a sort of a suicide can of suicide -- a sardine can of suicide bombers. And it is an area that is going to remain a harbor for terrorism. The Israelis either have to cleanse it, or the international community has to cleanse it. It's going to have to be dealt with as part of a final settlement, Miles.
And so inevitably, the Israelis have a choice. They've been able so far to avoid significant casualties from suicide bombers because, frankly, Gaza is surrounded largely by an Israeli fence. Most of the people in Gaza are restricted in their movement. It has been somewhat of a semi-prison for Palestinians. And it is also a reason why there's such frustration, anger, and resentment in Gaza.
It is inevitably an area that cries out for economic rehabilitation and some semblance of order and normalcy in an area which is so small and highly populated.
O'BRIEN: Mark Perry, let's talk about this sardine can. It is very densely populated in Gaza. And how much does this complicate Israel's planning for whatever might be in store in Gaza?
PERRY: Well, I think it's unfortunate my colleague used the word "cleanse." It's the home of Islamic Jihad, and it is the home of Hamas, but it's not clear that the bombing this week in Israel was centered or came out of Gaza.
This would be a difficult operation. There are 100,000 people, refugees, in the Jevalia (ph) camp alone, and they're prepared to meet any Israeli offensive.
I think that this would -- it might turn out to be a quagmire unless Shimon Peres is right in his comments in Europe that this would be a very focused and narrow operation. There is very clear intelligence from the Israeli military of where the caches of arms there would be.
But they have to ask themselves, would this stop suicide bombing? It's very clear from their operation in the West Bank that there is a minimal utility for these kinds of continued operations, and it's exacting a price on the Israeli military.
O'BRIEN: Well, Marc Ginsberg, let's talk about that for a moment, the motivations of some of these suicide bombers might very well be just as opposed to Yasser Arafat as Ariel Sharon is, in which case their efforts anticipate Sharon's response, and therefore it's all working out for them just as well as it is for Sharon, or as they intend it to be.
GINSBERG: There's a clear problem here, Miles, and the Israelis are going to have to grapple with it. If they let every suicide bomber serve as the -- a veto authority over any progress to peace, then they only provide the suicide bombers and their instigators the very type of power over the future of the state of Israel that no Israeli government should accord them.
At the same time, there's no way there's going to be a day of peace in Israel, much less any future for Israelis to feel secure, until Islamic Jihad and Hamas are finally dealt with once and for all.
They are not interested, not interested in any settlement with Israel that leaves Israel as a Jewish democratic state in the Middle East. They're determined to destroy Israel and put Israel -- transform Israel into an Islamic state.
That is why there is no place for them at the negotiating table. They are never prepared to negotiate. And that's why I disagree with my colleague and good friend Mark that they have to be dealt with militarily. They are not going to be able to be dealt with peacefully or politically.
O'BRIEN: Mark Perry, that scene of some two dozen of the people who had been holed up in the Church of the Nativity arriving in Gaza as triumphant heroes, was that appropriate?
PERRY: Well, appropriate or not, this is the way the Palestinian people feel. Their primary focus here is not on terrorism or terrorist attacks against Israelis, their primary focus is on ending the occupation. And fortunately or unfortunately, but realistically, the people in the Nativity church became heroes in Palestinian society, and they're seen as symbols of the kind of defense that the Palestinians want to mount, of not giving in.
On the other hand, the fact that 13 were exiled has really crossed a red line for many Palestinians reminiscent of the -- what they call the al Nakba (ph), the catastrophe, of 1948 when they believe they were expelled from their home.
So it's a little bit of both, a celebration but a realization that things are very, very difficult here and are going to continue...
O'BRIEN: But Mark...
PERRY: ... to be difficult...
O'BRIEN: ... Mark, the...
PERRY: ... so long as the occupation continues.
O'BRIEN: The terms of that exile seem a bit murky, to say the least. People in Cyprus, where the 13 are, are saying this is only a temporary exile, if you will, or temporary visit.
GINSBERG: Well, in some respects, Miles, it represents a...
PERRY: Well, that's a...
GINSBERG: ... a settle, a settlement of a very complicated situation. As you may recall, one of the reasons why the siege was not lifted earlier was because the Italians were not even brought into the equation until after they heard that they were supposed to take some of these terrorists.
These were the summit -- those that were exiled, Miles, represented what would be the Israeli equivalent of the FBI most wanted. These are the ones who actually committed some of the most horrific terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.
Whether or not the Europeans abide by this agreement and keep these people locked up and away from returning from exile is key. I understand, of course, that there was a difficult decision on the part of the Palestinians to accept this exile, but they had a choice. They either could have fallen into the hands of Israelis and be dealt with more harshly, or given somewhat of a pass despite the catastrophe they left in the Church of the Nativity in terms of their siege.
And now they're somewhat in prison and not really going to pay a great price for the civilian casualties they inflicted on Israelis.
O'BRIEN: All right, gentlemen, we're out of time, unfortunately. Marc Ginsberg, Mark Perry, thanks, as always, for your insights. We appreciate it.
PERRY: Sure.
GINSBERG: Sure.
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