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CNN Saturday Morning News

Interviews With James Allen, Willie Sallie, Winfred Rembert

Aired May 11, 2002 - 07:38   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: We're here at the Martin Luther King National Historic Site, and we're talking about "Without Sanctuary: American Photography on Lynching." You may remember the song that Billie Holiday wrote, "Strange Fruit." Well, it's about this story you're about to see.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(MUSIC)

PHILLIPS (voice-over): They're images that will haunt you, teach you, and remind you about a time where some of America's worst crimes against humanity took place.

MARY LOMAX: What changed my mind was the Jewish Holocaust. People said, oh, it's not true -- that's propaganda. I thought the same thing when I saw this, I...

PHILLIPS: Leon and Mary Lomax can relate to these brutal photos and postcards of lynching victims. They grew up around it. Their parents survived it.

LEON LOMAX: It reminds me of why my parents told me certain things about how to conduct my life. I didn't know it then, as a boy. But I can understand now what they were attempting to tell me, without saying what the consequences could be.

M. LOMAX: It's a part of our history, and it should be seen and it's an emotional experience when you see it. You know, to see what happened to so many people. A lesson to be learned from it.

PHILLIPS: "Without Sanctuary" will call you to witness a legacy of human cruelty and prejudice. It will move you, and it will anger you. No matter what your color, no matter what your background.

Shaking and disturbed, England's Prince Andrew toured this exhibit with Martin Luther King Jr.'s family. He couldn't finish the tour. Neither could a number of other visitors.

DAVID LARDNER: I thought it was very disturbing. Some of it was hard to look at, some of the stories were very hard to read but, once again, it's necessary to educate yourself on this subject. Once again, to keep things like this from ever happening again. PHILLIPS: There was controversy about brining these photos to Atlanta. The arts community battled over that decision for a year. Some people thought that these pictures were too graphic. Others worried it would open up old wounds by bringing people face-to-face with the dark side of the South.

FRANK CATROPPA, MLK NATIONAL HISTORIC PARK: It is the story of this country, and it must be told. To really understand the struggle for civil rights in the United States, you have to understand issues like lynching, segregation, slavery...

PHILLIPS: After the Civil War, this illegal mob violence of lynching became a party. Historians say it became a weapon of social control, wielded against America's immigrant populations. But as you can see by these horrific photographs, it became a way to terrorize black people.

CATROPPA: When you go through the exhibition, it's really difficult not to examine yourself and to see -- you know -- how do I treat other people?

PHILLIPS: When you look at these pictures, you will see the dignity of men like Frank Embry (ph), the pride of George Hughes (ph). You will come to terms with the painful past -- history and faces meant to provoke and to inspire. Inspire justice and reconciliation.

CATROPPA: It can't help but get you thinking about your own attitudes toward your fellow man.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: We're now joined by Jim Allen; he's the owner of these photographs. Thank you so much for being with us this morning.

JIM ALLEN, OWNER OF EXHIBIT PHOTOGRAPHS: My pleasure.

PHILLIPS: Well, you know, I have to ask you this: why. Why would you want to collect these type of photographs?

ALLEN: Kyra, every one of these images represents hundreds of other people and any American who looks into the faces of these people will recognize them.

PHILLIPS: You know what I find fascinating. You came from a wealthy white family, but I know you had a very fascinating relationship, years back, with a black woman who was very influential in teaching you about the ways of the white people, I guess we could say. Is that what moved you to be so sensitive toward this type of American history?

ALLEN: Well, that example early on. But many examples of really noble African-Americans who were getting a Ph.D. in survival while my friends were getting Ph.D.'s in other things. And the day-to-day life, the heroic day-to-day life of African-Americans against a million humiliations, exclusions -- that's what -- that's when you know what the word hero is all about. To get up the next morning and keep going.

PHILLIPS: Let's talk about some of the photos, let's walk along here -- as you started collecting these photos -- how did you collect these, by the way?

ALLEN: Well, the first one was random. We couldn't identify it; we didn't know it was American. We hoped it wasn't American. And nobody knew; so three years later, someone at a flea market offered me a picture of a black woman who was lynched.

PHILLIPS: Are we talking about Lori Nelson (ph)?

ALLEN: Lori Nelson (ph).

PHILLIPS: All right, let's go up to that picture. I know it's right here at the end. OK. Let's talk about Lori Nelson (ph).

ALLEN: Lori Nelson (ph) is a very important image for lots of Americans who come to see the exhibit. She's in her house dress, her wedding ring is very prominent, and she speaks to all of the lies that African-Americans have had to just live with.

She was a courageous mother, her son was lynched with her, who was 14-years-old. She tried to take the blame for a shooting, which was probably in self-defense, that her son did. She begged them to take her and not her son. This assertion of her rights and her courage upset the community in Okimo (ph), Oklahoma. She was proving false all of the centuries of lies about African-Americans.

PHILLIPS: You talk about white fear. Is this what you're talking about?

ALLEN: Oh, definitely. You know, there's a tremendous amount of fear in the white community. Every white person knows what black rage is. They're afraid of it. But let me tell you something. Black rage is what is keeping the conscious of America alive. That's probably the larger fear. We have to look at ourselves when we confront black rage.

PHILLIPS: Crimes were committed here. You were saying that Lori Nelson's son did commit a crime. However, these are about a crime even greater. A human crime.

ALLEN: Oh, listen. We don't even know that, in reality, that he committed any crime. People love to talk about black crime, about these being criminals. There's not an aspect of justice in any of these photos. They have nothing to do with vigilantism. Nothing to do with justice -- a common justice.

White people knew that there was a court system, well established, in their counties that would deal swiftly and harshly and prejudiciously against any black person. This was something else.

They didn't just want justice; they needed to wipe out the black presence. They needed to destroy. They weren't happy until they burned the bodies up, until they crushed the teeth, until the last speck -- evidence of that person's life -- every person in everyone of these images, who was tortured, mutilated, killed, drowned, beaten -- these individuals were not helpless people; they were a threat to the white community. They represented some power that the white community was afraid of.

PHILLIPS: Now, we're talking about the black community. But, I want to take us over here. Leo Franks (ph), a Jewish man, who was lynched. Tell us the background of Leo Franks -- I mean, this is something that went even outside of the black community, but also the white community.

ALLEN: There is a small number of white people, in percentages, who were lynched. And even that number will become smaller once the whole story is told. And all of the lynchings will come forward, come up to the surface.

But Leo Franks (ph), he is very important because in every aspect of every white lynching, as well as black, there was discrimination behind it. Leo Franks (ph) was Jewish. He represented a well-to-do northern industrial community. In the South, in Atlanta, where half of the people were living without running water or electricity. He represents the person on the outside.

We have on our state capitol grounds a statue of Tom Watson. Tom Watson is one of the white leaders who is responsible for this man's death, and God knows how many others. Every child that goes to visit there has to go under the statue of this man. So, Leo Franks (ph) is very much alive today in our whole city and very much in the memory of people.

PHILLIPS: This is one aspect of the strength -- before we go to break, finally, the positive side. Please. Of these pictures, of this exhibit. I know you have a strong feeling about what type of very -- a strong impact that these will make. Not just making people feel sick to their stomach, but reevaluating how we all treat each other.

ALLEN: Many Americans and foreigners who have come to see this exhibit feel like they have, for the first time, got their mind around the entire experience about race in America. It's very difficult to deny the smaller humiliations, the daily humiliations that African- Americans and minorities today experience when you see that the dominant white community could commit these larger crimes.

This is opening up dialogue. People are talking about it. African-Americans now have evidence -- I hear it -- for the first time they can't believe it -- of what they've been told since childhood. We've got a chance, if we look.

PHILLIPS: And you know what? We're going to hear about two of those individuals that experienced that in their childhood. Jim Allen, thank you so much.

ALLEN: You're so welcome.

PHILLIPS: Coming up, right after this break, we are going to meet with two people; one, who survived an attempted lynching; another one who had to live through it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: And welcome back to the Martin Luther King National Historic Site. Joining me right now, Willie Sallie. I said it right; we've been practicing that last name. I've been all nervous about that. So glad you could be with us.

WILLIE SALLIE, FATHER WITNESSED LYNCHINGS: Glad to be here.

PHILLIPS: Well, you've had a chance to see the exhibit. You've seen the pictures. You have a personal story to tell. You grew up having to live this era. Your father and mother having to witness lynchings. Take me back, will you please, to when you were a little boy, and the stories that your father would tell you.

SALLIE: Well, my father was a quiet man. It wasn't until 10 years ago that I actually understood exactly what he was going through then.

PHILLIPS: He wouldn't talk about it.

SALLIE: He would not talk about it. Not until, again, 10 years ago when I was a student and I was asking him some questions about life in Mississippi, in the South, when he was growing up. And he eventually told me a story of what happened to him and my mother and one of my -- my oldest siblings -- who were force-marched to actually witness a lynching.

PHILLIPS: When you say force-marched -- they would come into the home, pull your parents out of the home -- and this was a way to say to them, threaten them, basically.

SALLIE: Very much so. Yes. He said they actually -- these night riders, if you will -- those that were cloaked, came in on horseback into the small confines -- or the community -- of share croppers -- and actually kick the doors in, shooting, the whole nine yards, and actually force everyone in the middle of the night with their small children -- gathered them together and then commenced to march them, or force-march them, to a site where it had already been set up for an actual lynching.

PHILLIPS: As you were growing up, did your Dad ever warn you -- was there a code of ethics that he told you about as a young black boy.

SALLIE: Oh my God, yes. There were -- a certain code of behavior that you had to follow whenever you were dealing with someone white and -- which was not to ever look at them directly in the eyes, and to avoid any contact, get off the sidewalk, be extremely professional at all times -- extremely pleasant, respectful, at all times. If not, you could actually be killed. He told us that, yes.

PHILLIPS: Willie, we're going to bring in Winfred Rembert, he's in Hartford, Connecticut. His story, very compelling, like yours. Winfred, can you hear me all right? WINFRED REMBERT, LYNCHING SURVIVOR: I sure can.

PHILLIPS: Sir, we sure appreciate you being with us. I have been telling our viewers a little bit about your story, the fact that you yourself survived an attempted lynching. Will you take us back to 1965 in Gusford, Georgia and tell us what happened, sir?

REMBERT: Well, I had went to a sit-in and it got out of hand -- in Americus, Georgia, as a matter of fact -- and there was a lot of shooting, so I ran through this alley and there was a car sitting there with keys in it, so I took that car and I went to Gusford, and I got caught.

And I landed in jail. Stayed in there a year, maybe a year and a half without any bond or anyone knowing where I were. So I got mad one day and put a roll of tissue in the toilet. And I flooded the jail.

And the sheriff came back to beat me up. And my idea was to take that beating. But after he was kicking me so hard, I decided to fight him back. So, he went for his gun. And he and I was wrestling over the gun and I finally took it from him.

He asked me, very seriously, to give him his gun back, but I didn't dare do that. So, I didn't know what to do. So I locked him in his cell and I fled. And I went to a friend of mine's home, which I thought he was my friend, and he wasn't there -- his wife was there and she made me welcome.

I told her what had happened. And as I sat there and wait on him, she went in the next room and called the police. And by the time I figured out what was going on and looked out the window, there was -- you know, 40 or 50 white folks out there getting ready to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the house.

And they did just that. And I -- gee, I was just prepared to take another butt beating. And they (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and they did just that. Must have took a beating for like 40 -- 30 or 40 minutes -- and I was turned over to these two state policeman was supposed to bring me back to the jail. And as I did that -- as they commenced to do that -- I was in the backseat, handcuffed, and this one trooper in the front seat, he turned around in his seat, the one that wasn't driving, he turned around in his seat and said to me, he says, "Nigger, don't you know you're not supposed to hit a white man?"

And as he said that, he smacked me. And blood got on his shirt. And he looked at the other guy and he said, "I got nigger blood on my shirt." And he took all his medals off, and this was in the wintertime, took all of his medals off and his badge, and he threw the shirt out the window.

And while this was happening, the dispatcher for the state police is screaming on the radio, "Do you got that Winfred nigger, do you got him?" And I end up going by there, taking another butt beating. All this was happening around 11 o'clock at night. So seemed like to me they spent an hour and a half beating me. By the time we got back to the jail, I estimated it to be 1 o'clock in the morning. So I sat in that state police car until day broke that morning. And I saw other people coming to the building as I was sitting in that car; they was coming to the sheriff's department. And I took it that someone was calling different people saying, oh, we got Winfred, you know, come on by. And just before day break...

PHILLIPS: So, Winfred, basically what was happening is a lynching was about to take place because they were calling people to come and be a part of this, right? And so, you saw what was coming. Take me from that point, what happened?

REMBERT: Well, it still hadn't dawned on me that they was going to try to lynch me. It didn't dawn on me that they was going to try to lynch me until they came over -- took me out of that car and put me in the trunk of another. And began to take a ride. That's when it dawned on me that I might lose my life, but lynching hadn't crossed my mind yet. So when they got to the..

PHILLIPS: And, Winfred, I want to tell you, unfortunately our satellite time is running out. This just breaks my heart, but I know you're coming back, you're coming back in 30 minutes -- I want you to hold that thought.

We're going to talk about how you survived that attempted lynching, who it was that came to save your life. And we're going to talk about the art that you now do that expresses your feelings of survival. Winfred, so you stay with us, all right? We're going to see you back here in about 30 minutes.

REMBERT: All right.

PHILLIPS: All right. And Willie Sallie, thank you so much, we appreciate it very much. Once again, stories of courage from your parents, too, and we appreciate you being here with us.

SALLIE: Thanks a lot.

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