Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Saturday Morning News
Interview With Father Allan Hawkins
Aired May 18, 2002 - 07:36 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: There are those who say allowing priest's to marry is one solution to the current sex scandal in the Catholic Church. Joining me from Dallas to talk about that a little bit more is Father Allan Hawkins, a Catholic priest, who also happens to wear a wedding band. Father Hawkins, good to have you with us.
FATHER ALLEN HAWKINS: Good morning.
O'BRIEN: First of all, for those who don't know about this little loophole, if you will, in the Catholic Church rules, explain how you became a married Catholic priest.
HAWKINS: I was a former Episcopal priest -- an Anglican -- and in 1980, Pope John Paul II made a special arrangement whereby convert Anglican Episcopal priests could become priests in the Catholic Church, even though they were married.
O'BRIEN: All right, so it just applies to Anglican Episcopals who were married, who convert to Roman Catholic religion, correct?
HAWKINS: Yes.
O'BRIEN: OK, and there are about 100 of those in the world? Or in the U.S.?
HAWKINS: No, about 100 in the United States -- there are far more in England.
O'BRIEN: I see. All right, well, tell me -- you're in a parish -- how was that when you came in the parish, with Catholics, of course, not being accustomed to seeing a priest -- you know, walking around town with a wife.
HAWKINS: That's not quite how it worked, in fact. I came to the parish in 1980, at which time it was an Episcopal parish.
O'BRIEN: Oh.
HAWKINS: The whole parish became Catholic. It left the Episcopal Church in 1991, and we joined the Roman Catholic Church in 1994.
O'BRIEN: Interesting. So, that in and of itself has got to be kind of unusual. HAWKINS: Yes. It's unique, in fact -- a parish transferring en blanc (ph) like that. And unanimously.
O'BRIEN: I'm missing a big part of this story. Nevertheless, tell me a little bit about your perspective on this. You've seen the priesthood in a different light than most priest's do. Do you think, first of all, that celibacy has anything to do with the sex abuse scandal that we've been seeing unfold here? There are some who would tell you it's a separate issue.
HAWKINS: I think it is essentially a separate issue, although it's not totally separate. I have the greatest admiration for celibate priests, and value the celibacy vocation. I don't think it's necessarily the same vocation as the vocation of the priesthood. But I think that a celibate priesthood may be a kind of place where homosexual priests can hide, as it were. So there is a small connection in that way. I think if there were many married priests, it would be less hospitable a profession for homosexuality.
O'BRIEN: All right; but we're not talking about homosexuality, we're talking about pedophilia.
HAWKINS: Well, are we? I think I'm not sure about that. I think, in fact, the issue is really homosexuality.
O'BRIEN: Well, now -- are we talking about priest's abusing young boys, primarily, right?
HAWKINS: As I understand it, the incidence of abuse of small boys is actually very small; it's mostly pubescent and teenage boys, in fact.
O'BRIEN: All right, so you -- so, clearly, you're making an important link there, that some in the Catholic Church have refused to make -- let me ask you this. How do you feel about how the church has responded, or perhaps, in some cases, not responded, to all these allegations?
HAWKINS: I think there's some misunderstanding of what it is to have a pastoral role. I think as a pastor, if somebody comes to me who has done something terrible, my first reaction is not to be a policeman, but to be someone who cares for that person. And for their victim's both. But, I think the first reaction is pastoral rather than judicial, as you might say.
O'BRIEN: Well, then, we would expect that of priests to be pastoral. But, nevertheless, there are occasions when it might cry out for something more than being pastoral.
HAWKINS: Yes, I agree -- I agree.
O'BRIEN: And would you agree that this is one of those occasions.
HAWKINS: Yes.
O'BRIEN: OK, so, having said all that, where is the Church right now, and do you think it needs to do something more?
HAWKINS: I think that the bishops, when they meet in June, do have a very difficult problem before them; they're meeting here in Dallas to decide what is the best way to handle all this, and I pray that they will both accept a responsible position as far as the needs of society are concerned, but will not lose sight of the pastoral dimensions of it all.
I'd like just to add one word about the issue of married priests, because I think you may be interested in that.
O'BRIEN: Please do.
HAWKINS: My father was an Anglican priest, and so I have lived all my life in a clerical household. It seems to me that there is a real -- having reflected on this over recent days -- under the impetus of all the recent events -- I can see not a positive value in having a married priesthood. I believe that married priests approach their work in a -- out of a family base. It's almost an incarnational matter, they are part of the life of the community they serve -- my family and I are to be seen in the grocery store, at the PTA, and so on.
O'BRIEN: So, you add a dimension to your pastoral duties, which, by definition, a celibate, single priest cannot.
HAWKINS: I think it's difficult for them to do that, let's say that.
O'BRIEN: Well, then, that leads to the next question. Isn't it high time for the Catholic Church to start considering getting rid of what is perhaps an anachronism -- this rule of celibacy? Because, in fact, it is perhaps counter-productive to the mission, which is to care for the flock.
HAWKINS: I would certainly like that now to be given some serious consideration.
O'BRIEN: But will it?
HAWKINS: I don't know.
O'BRIEN: Yeah. I mean, given the tone and tenor of things in Rome and elsewhere, it doesn't seem like that.
HAWKINS: Well the church moves very slowly, you know, it doesn't make any quick decisions. These things are pondered and prayed over for a long time. And I think this is a key moment in all of this.
O'BRIEN: You know, one thing that's always occurred to me, Father Hawkins, is there are probably a lot of very good people out there who would be wonderful Catholic priests, who, were it not for the celibacy rule, would have entered a seminary.
HAWKINS: I agree with you entirely. I know many of them.
O'BRIEN: It's kind of sad statement, isn't it?
HAWKINS: Well, I don't know whether it's sad, but I think it's an important matter to be considered.
O'BRIEN: You know, meanwhile, of course, there's a problem getting enough -- especially in this country -- getting enough Catholic priests into these parishes.
HAWKINS: Yes, I agree.
O'BRIEN: All of this seems to be coming to a head.
HAWKINS: Yes.
O'BRIEN: So, where does it lead?
HAWKINS: Well, hopefully it leads the Church to do some reconsideration of a long-standing tradition. The time has come for some breaking some molds and making some new ones, I think.
O'BRIEN: All right, we've got to -- before we leave, let's -- we want to show a picture of you and your wife, and I've just got to ask you, do you feel pretty confident that you're a better priest as a result of having your lovely wife at your side?
HAWKINS: Absolutely.
O'BRIEN: How so?
HAWKINS: She is the greatest support you can imagine; she understands what I do; she sympathizes; she sometimes advises, of course she is never party to confidences that I might receive, say, in the confessional -- of course not -- but she relates to the people, sometimes in ways that I can't.
Sometimes people will talk to her who wouldn't talk to me, knowing that she will pass on in some judicial sort of way what they want me to hear. And so on. But above all, she manages my household, and provides me with a secure and warm and affectionate base from which I can be relaxed and do my work.
O'BRIEN: All good things worth praying for.
HAWKINS: Absolutely.
O'BRIEN: Father Allen Hawkins, we wish you well in your priestly duties and in your marriage and we're sorry that your wife was too camera shy to join us this morning, but anyway. She can talk about that in her next confession to you. I gather you don't do confessions...
HAWKINS: No, no, no. She goes elsewhere.
O'BRIEN: OK, Father Allen Hawkins, thank you for being with us on CNN Saturday Morning.
HAWKINS: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
