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CNN Saturday Morning News
Interview With Armstrong Williams, Victoria Jones
Aired July 13, 2002 - 07:22 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, let's get back to a subject that's been on our minds quite a bit lady -- lately, corporate responsibility, or perhaps the fact that that might be a contradiction in terms.
President Bush and Congress have spoken out about this issue, you probably have as well. Recent scandals with Enron, WorldCom, and a host of others too numerous to mention have pushed the topic on the front page and across these airwaves.
A lot of people get angry when they see executives flying those Gulfstream jets, living in mansion after mansion, sometimes a half- dozen of them, and the stockholders are left with a bunch of goose eggs in their 401(K)s.
So let's go to our guests, who are anything but goose eggs, talk show hosts Armstrong Williams up there in New York City, Victoria Jones in Washington. Good to have you both with us again. It's been a little while. Nice to see you.
VICTORIA JONES, TALK SHOW HOST: Thank you.
ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TALK SHOW HOST: Good morning.
O'BRIEN: Good morning.
All right, let's talk about corporate responsibility or (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- I have a hard time even putting the two words together, Victoria. First, let's talk about what the president said in his speech. Did he go far enough? Would you like to see more? Certainly there is a political issue in the works here, isn't there?
JONES: Yes. No, there definitely is, and, you know, he said some stuff in the speech. When you actually analyze it, there's really not very much there.
And I think what's even more interesting than what he said in his speech -- I mean, he said some...
O'BRIEN: I mean, that -- do you think that kind of...
JONES: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the press conference.
O'BRIEN: ... falls flat on a lot of people who have WorldCom stock when you hear that?
JONES: What, the speech?
O'BRIEN: I mean -- yes, I mean, that's -- that's...
JONES: Absolutely.
O'BRIEN: ... that's tantamount...
JONES: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
O'BRIEN: ... that's tantamount to...
JONES: Of course it is.
O'BRIEN: ... you know, his, his father going to the supermarket and not knowing...
JONES: Absolutely.
O'BRIEN: ... about the bar code deal...
JONES: Absolutely, and what...
O'BRIEN: ... there's no there there.
JONES: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
O'BRIEN: Let them eat cake.
JONES: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- what President Bush also did on Thursday when he was in Minneapolis is, he said to -- in a speech, Well, do you really think, people, that the bottom line on this corporate America stuff is really that important? He went on to say that no, it isn't, what matters is loving your neighbor.
Well, it seems to me that only a multimillionaire could not realize that corporate responsibility and this corporate America stuff is very important to those of us who are trying to struggle to make ends meet. And it is loving your neighbor or not when you're being scammed by CEOs who don't care whether you've got a job or a 401(K).
O'BRIEN: All right, Armstrong, what do you think? Do corporate executives need to love us a little more?
WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I -- to address your initial question, I think the president had the right rhetoric and the substance, but unfortunately the measures for enforcing it and making sure that this corruption and this greed do not continue were not there.
And I think the Senate, when they passed -- made that vote on the floor, 99 to 0, it sort of preempted the president and took away his thunder, because unless the president deals with stronger protection for whistle-blowers, unless the president address these overseas accounts where these corporate executives are able to shelter and hide their money that they obviously steal from their corporations, and unless the president talks about the fact that what, what, what, what, what, what, what we all know inside the Beltway, is that the kinds of situations with, in terms of people getting inside tips on stocks, and it exists, it has exist for a long time, and it's not something that is surprising.
And there need to be stiffer penalties to enforce the laws. And some of these guys, not just executives but it goes from the bottom to the top, needs to end up in jail. And the president sends -- needs to send a message that we're just not going to tolerate this...
O'BRIEN: You know...
WILLIAMS: ... and we've seen foreign...
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: It seems to me, let me just make this one point, it seems to me that people expected this. It's not a surprise to them. They just didn't want it to be thrown in their face. I mean, give them one Gulf Stream, not four.
JONES: I know, it's, it's, it's...
O'BRIEN: Two mansions, not six.
JONES: ... unbelievable.
O'BRIEN: It -- the gluttony of it is what, what really, I think, strikes people, don't you think, Victoria?
JONES: I think the gluttony is so beyond most of our imaginations that we're just hearing numbers. We cannot imagine the kinds of money that these people have made, the kinds of deals and scams they've done. Everything Armstrong said, I totally agree with.
And then we have this extraordinary situation where not only have they fleeced us, but they sit up there on Capitol Hill and say, I know nothing. Well, I think, Miles, if you or I or Armstrong said, I know nothing about our job, we'd be canned.
These people get millions and millions for knowing nothing. What is that?
O'BRIEN: At the very least, it's felonious incompetence, I guess.
What about, you know, Armstrong, I think there are some European nations have -- Germany comes to mind -- where there are actually legislated ratios between the pay of the top-ranking person to the lowest person. I may be talking a little bit out of school here. But do you think that there's some -- Part of this has to do with this huge disparity, and we could get into a whole social commentary here about how the haves and the have-nots.
do you think that we need to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- you know, take the CEOs down a notch or bring the bottom level up more, closer to them?
WILLIAMS: Well, I certainly don't think that is role for the government. I think definitely we do not want to cripple or stifle entrepreneurs in this country, especially small entrepreneurs, which is the backbone of America.
I think that it's (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
O'BRIEN: But what about that issue of the disparity?
WILLIAMS: Well, there is an issue of disparity, but many of these people, they start these businesses with their own money and their families, but what happens is, is that the...
O'BRIEN: No,, no, we're not...
WILLIAMS: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
O'BRIEN: ... talking about this, we're talking about big companies, we're talking about people who do a terrible job running a company, walk away with eight-figure parting gifts. That's what I'm talking about. There is a huge difference between the haves and the have-nots, many, many millions...
WILLIAMS: You know what? Therefore...
O'BRIEN: ... and the minimum wage...
WILLIAMS: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
O'BRIEN: ... has barely changed, you know?
WILLIAMS: Listen, guys, that will continue. I think the issue is the greed part. I don't think many Americans mind someone having a Gulfstream, a yacht, but it's when you exploit the company, rob the company, and then many of your employees are left without benefits, are left to fend for themselves, they cannot finance their child's education.
I think this is when it's out of control. And when it gets out of control, there needs to be some measure in place to not only punish this corporate exec and those that benefited, but find out where to get that money back so it can be used for the...
O'BRIEN: All right, well, I...
WILLIAMS: ... purpose that it was put in place in the beginning.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Yes, all that sounds good, how do you do it, Armstrong?
WILLIAMS: How do you do it?
O'BRIEN: Yes. WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I think there are many corporations out there like Wal-Mart and others that set the example of how their employees...
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: ... we know, we know it's not all corporations. There are good corporations out there. I'm wondering how you -- what you're proposing, I guess...
JONES: Accountability.
O'BRIEN: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is a, is a voluntary program, because you say the government shouldn't be involved.
Victoria, what do you...
WILLIAMS: It must happen within the corporation. There must be a checks and balance system...
O'BRIEN: OK, well, yes...
WILLIAMS: ... which must be put in place...
O'BRIEN: ... all that sounds good...
WILLIAMS: ... where they can monitor each other.
O'BRIEN: ... but that's -- isn't that just a bunch of rhetoric? How do you put, how do you instill that? How do you inculcate that into the whole system?
WILLIAMS: Miles, on your best day, you can put all the measures in place. But unless you have people of character and integrity who really care about their employees and who are not greedy, there's very little that you can do to change this corporate culture.
O'BRIEN: Well...
WILLIAMS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) if you say...
JONES: Yes, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
O'BRIEN: Victoria, I mean...
WILLIAMS: ... the corporations (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
O'BRIEN: ... you're right, no matter...
JONES: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
O'BRIEN: ... how many -- Victoria, I would agree, no matter how many laws there are, a cheat is a cheat, a robber is a robber, and that's going to be the case.
JONES: Absolutely. O'BRIEN: So what would you...
JONES: Absolutely.
O'BRIEN: ... suggest is done?
JONES: Absolutely. There's no question. But you see, when you don't have accountability and responsibility, you create a climate in which people who might not otherwise be tempted are tempted. And absolutely, we have to have people with morality. And we have to have people with integrity.
But it's difficult for people to continue to have that when they know they can get away with it, when you know that you can fleece people, it becomes much easier to do that.
So yes, we must have people with moral character, but this -- is this the only area in which we don't have laws to ensure that people do toe the line? We ensure they toe the line in every other field of life. Maybe we need to do that here too.
O'BRIEN: All right, I guess we're going to have to leave it at that, we have to -- trying to legislate morality once again here on CNN SATURDAY MORNING, solving the world's problems...
JONES: We can't.
O'BRIEN: ... with us, if -- we can't, you're right. OK, that's about enough. We could have saved a lot of time on our air if we just said, We can't, and (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
JONES: But we can...
O'BRIEN: ... gone to the commercial break...
JONES: ... we can, we can stop them.
O'BRIEN: ... for a large multinational corporation or something.
All right, Victoria Jones, Armstrong Williams, always a great pleasure to have you with us on CNN SATURDAY MORNING. At the very least, you saved people having to get a second cup of coffee, and we do appreciate that.
WILLIAMS: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: We'll see you soon, I hope.
JONES: Thank you.
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