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CNN Saturday Morning News

Interview With Malik Shabazz, Armstrong Williams

Aired August 17, 2002 - 07:21   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: Should blacks in the U.S. be compensated for the suffering their ancestors endured during slavery?
Well, supporters say yes, because the government allowed slavery. Opponents say no because descendants are not the ones who suffered.

There's a rally today in Washington of the people who favor compensation. And joining us to discuss this controversial issue is one of the day's featured speakers, Malik Shabazz. He's chairman of the New Black Panther Party. And also with us from Washington is an opponent of reparations, radio talk show host Armstrong Williams.

Gentlemen, thank you so very much for getting up early with us this morning to talk about this.

I know, Mr. Shabazz, you were already up getting ready for your big day. You've worked very hard on putting together this rally.

But I want to ask you, Mr. Shabazz, what do you really hope to achieve if you were to receive reparations?

MALIK SHABAZZ, EVENT ORGANIZER, REPARATIONS RALLY: We would hope to achieve the land back that has been taken from us and being taken today from the black farmers, the factories that we need to produce products and business for ourselves, the schools that we need to reeducate ourselves, and the other institutions that would heal us after over 400 years of slavery and de facto segregation and discrimination since that period point in time.

We hope to be healed in part. Ultimately we must heal ourselves.

CALLAWAY: Mr. Williams, would this help in the healing process, or does this continue the We are victims theme?

ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, HOST, "THE RIGHT SIDE": Well, you know, the -- no one will argue about the effects of human slavery and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) segregation and racism and the effects that it has had on all Americans in this country and throughout the world.

But the problem with the reparations movement is that its focus is so much on the past and doesn't focus on the future. And it presumes that blacks in this country, which they are not, are victims, and therefore the government owes them reparations.

I mean, it feeds into the victim status, and it does not take into consideration how many people from all walks of life have overcome obstacles, have overcome challenges, and they have found the way to build their communities, build businesses, and thrive in America.

Have we ever wondered why...

SHABAZZ: I would disagree.

WILLIAMS: ... immigrants are able to come to this country with a blank piece of paper, and some of us will see nothing, and they see everything, and they can build a fortune? It is so important that we focus on being victims and that the government owes us something...

SHABAZZ: I would disagree...

CALLAWAY: All right, all right, Mr., Mr. Williams...

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: ... most people want to work...

CALLAWAY: ... let Mr....

WILLIAMS: ... and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in life.

CALLAWAY: Thank you, Mr. Williams...

SHABAZZ: I would disagree with that.

CALLAWAY: ... and Mr. Shabazz, go ahead.

SHABAZZ: Mr. Williams would not dare go to one of the European Jews and say, Stop talking about what happened to you in Nazi Germany. And the Jews, European Jews, have received reparations. And he wouldn't have the nerve to say that to the Japanese. Seventy percent of his own people say they support reparations. About 3 percent of them or less are Republicans.

So once again, in terms of reparations, he's on the wrong side of his own people. It's not about the past, it's about achieving what is justly due. Any lawyer can understand this, any victim in America can understand this. This has strong precedent in American constitutional history, amongst others.

We're trying to build something for the future...

CALLAWAY: Mr. Williams, now, let me...

SHABAZZ: ... so that we may become a whole people.

CALLAWAY: Mr. Williams, let me let you react to that. Wouldn't this help with the negative feelings that are still there?

WILLIAMS: No, absolutely not. No apology, no amount of money could ever heal those wounds. You know, when former President Clinton was in the White House, when he was in Africa, and he tried to apologize for slavery, Americans, especially American blacks, were offended and outraged.

It is sad that you think that you can pay some money...

SHABAZZ: We don't want money.

WILLIAMS: ... whatever -- to heal the guilt and the wounds of the past.

SHABAZZ: We're not asking...

WILLIAMS: Let's just move on. Remember the past, build from the past, but build it for better achievement for your company in all of...

SHABAZZ: We're not, we're not...

WILLIAMS: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I mean, it's just an argument that where they're using people who really believe they're going to get some paycheck. And it's not going to happen...

SHABAZZ: We're not -- that is completely false.

WILLIAMS: ... why don't you use the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for real issues like the crime epidemic in the community, the out-of-wedlock births? Use it for something that could really make a difference and empower people.

This is just a useless argument.

SHABAZZ: That is, that is false, we're not (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

CALLAWAY: Mr. Shabazz, you want land, right? You're not asking for money. What are you asking for?

SHABAZZ: We're asking for land, we're asking for financial compensation so that we may build schools, we may build drug rehabilitation facilities, that we may take our young men out of the criminal criminal justice system and rehabilitate them and educate them, so that we may have factories to produce that which is in the best interests for our people.

So reparations is absolutely needed at this particular point in time, and we must repair ourselves ultimately. We're not saying this is the ultimate solution. We must go back into our communities and by struggling for reparations, there will be more love, more unity, more dedication for our people.

CALLAWAY: And Mr. Williams, he made a point about Holocaust victims have been compensated. Why not relatives of slavery?

WILLIAMS: The Holocaust took place in Nazi Germany. American -- we were a colony when slavery was instituted in this country. We were not even a country at that point.

But you know what? The bottom line is this. If -- literally, if people were being paid reparations, it would literally pay to be black. Everybody and their grandmother would claim some black blood in their lineage.

So, I mean, look, he has a right to his argument. But I want to address one point he made, the point about his own people. My people are those that share my value system and my belief system. It has nothing to do with the hue of my skin, which says the least about me. It has to do with what has shaped me, my culture, and what I've become as a result of my value system.

And it is not about reparations.

SHABAZZ: Thousands upon thousands...

CALLAWAY: Mr. Shabazz, let me, let me...

SHABAZZ: Yes, ma'am.

CALLAWAY: ... stick on a point that he made, I want you to react to this. You know, how would you decide, how would they decide who were the relatives, who were the descendants of slavery, of slaves?

SHABAZZ: Most of us with European names, 99 percent of us with European names, who used to have African names, should have that right, because those names, our culture and religion, were stripped from us.

There will be thousands upon thousands on the Mall today demanding full and complete reparations. And right now, we're raising the consciousness, the political consciousness of our people to the fact that they owe us, America, her corporations, her government, and other interests have robbed our people...

CALLAWAY: OK.

SHABAZZ: ... and today thousands upon thousands will be opposite Mr. Armstrong Williams, who seems to be strongly aligned with Mr. Bush.

CALLAWAY: Mr. Shabazz, you had -- let's go ahead and give Mr. Williams the last word, because you had the first word. You know, he says, go by name. What is your reaction to that?

WILLIAMS: Well, Catherine, I'm sure if you check your history, you'll find you probably have a little black blood in you, so you better file your claim now. That's just how ridiculous this will become.

You know what? It's so easy to make the argument that I'm associated with Mr. Bush. But look, this is my value system, it's what I believe. And it's so sad that we're continually exploiting people in this country who've been deprived, who've experienced (UNINTELLIGIBLE) slavery we have overcome.

Why don't you empower them with things that can help them overcome, that can build...

CALLAWAY: OK. WILLIAMS: ... true economic equality in the communities...

CALLAWAY: Thank you...

WILLIAMS: ... around America?

CALLAWAY: All right, thank you, that's Armstrong Williams and Malik Shabazz. Thank you very much both for being with us today. I'm sure this debate will continue.

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