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CNN Saturday Morning News

Interview With James Martone, Denis Halliday

Aired August 31, 2002 - 07:26   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: World leaders have urged Mr. Bush to seek U.N. Security Council backing before attacking Iraq, and they have warned against a unilateral attack.
Joining me now to talk about all of this and other issues surrounding this is CNN's James Martone, who is joining us, actually, from Baghdad. And from New York this morning, Denis Halliday. He is a former U.N. assistant secretary general.

Gentlemen, thank you very much for being with us.

Let me start with you, Mr. Halliday, and I know you're very familiar with what we've been hearing from the Bush administration, with Rumsfeld saying that the decision to strike Iraq would be based on leadership, not consensus. We've heard from Dick Cheney saying that the advantages of attacking Iraq outweigh the risk of inaction.

Now, how is all this playing, you know, elsewhere in the world? How is the European Union reacting to these kind of comments coming out of the U.S.?

DENIS HALLIDAY, FORMER U.N. ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL: Well, I might start here in the United States, from the CNN poll this morning, 40 percent of Americans do not favor a military attack on Iraq, and that's a very significant figure.

I think in Europe, there's absolute, almost total reluctance and caution about attacking Iraq. It's -- the justification is not understood, not supported in Europe, and likewise in the -- amongst the Arab allies and friends of the United States in the region, in the Middle East.

So I think we have to listen to our friends and allies overseas and understand that we may perceive a fear, or certainly Mr. Cheney and Mr. Bush and others do, but in fact, many, as we've just heard in the Pentagon, in the State Department, do not share this anxiety.

And, you know, I think we have to look at the word "patriotism" and understand what it means. It doesn't...

CALLAWAY: Well...

HALLIDAY: ... necessarily mean going to war, it means looking after the best interests of the American people.

CALLAWAY: Right. I understand that. But I'm more concerned about, you know, it -- if the European Union, if those abroad are looking at this as more of posturing or on the discussion level, or is this being taken as something that the U.S. may indeed do and quickly?

HALLIDAY: No, I think there's a deep-seated fear in Europe and in the Arab world that the United States will do what Mr. Bush wants, that is, attack Iraq without the legal cover of the United Nations or other support. And I think the Europeans are extremely worried about the impact on the Middle East and peace in the Middle East.

CALLAWAY: All right. Let me go to you, James, James Martone there in Baghdad. What are you seeing on the ground there? Are you seeing any war preparations there in Baghdad?

JAMES MARTONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: War preparations, physical, in terms of the military escalation we've been -- you know, that's been reported outside of Iraq. There are -- not so much. What we do hear from diplomats is that there is perhaps more checkpoints, that there is a sort of reinforcing, as they call it, of sites around Baghdad.

But when you go outside, as we did today, to the -- to some streets of Baghdad, people appear to be going around their business as normal. They don't want to talk very much beyond saying that any strike would be illegitimate, which is, in fact, what their country has been saying.

They tend to toe, if you will, the government line, which is it would be unjustified. What they will say often is that it's something we're used to...

CALLAWAY: OK.

MARTONE: ... something that we've been under since the Iran -- the war with Iran, and afterwards the Gulf War. So people, yes, not happy, but resigned.

Catherine?

CALLAWAY: James, let me quickly ask you about what -- you mentioned this, but tell us a little bit more, exactly what the Iraqi media is reporting about all this.

MARTONE: The Iraqi media is and has been saying that the United States will be defeated, both in public opinion as well as (UNINTELLIGIBLE) they suppose -- they even say they would defeat in war.

What they're saying today in the newspapers, the state-run newspaper, is that, how can Bush, they say, still continue when he knows that the world, as one newspaper said, is against him?

They have been sending out their ministers, their foreign minister was just in China, the vice president in Syria and Lebanon, all on a sort of rallying mission for...

CALLAWAY: Right. MARTONE: ... support they say they're getting from not only Arab and Muslim countries but from other countries as well against any attack -- Catherine.

CALLAWAY: You know, there've been about 34 strikes in the no-fly zone, both in the north and the south over the last few years. We've seen that intensify. How has that played in the Iraqi media there, and what is the reaction on the streets?

MARTON: The reaction on the street is that there are innocent people being killed. That's what people say. The government officials say that it's U.S. and British coalition planes attacking civilian sites. Of course, the U.S. and Britain saying, no, we're protecting our pilots and we are striking at Iraqi radar. In any case, people are being killed and that's what people -- the Iraqis say -- they say we're in the middle of this and being killed, no matter who's doing the shooting -- Catherine.

CALLAWAY: What about the -- we have a high-ranking Iraqi now heading to Lebanon, and Tariq Aziz now off to Africa. What is being -- what is the word on the street there about that, about -- you know -- what are we seeing? As someone said on the international desk, are we seeing a charm offensive now by Iraq in this case?

MARTON: I would call it more of a diplomatic offensive, that's what it's been called in the press. People say, and as I said before, that they are, that they will, that they know that the world is with them. And that's how they feel. Nasi Subrey (ph) just got back, as I mentioned, from China. He will be in Moscow next week. Both China and Russia, U.N. Security permanent members.

So, and, they've come back and Nasi Subrey (ph) says he's got the support of China, he says he'll get it from Moscow. The vice president who, in fact, is returning today. Also, coming from Syria, for example, which was once an enemy of Iraq. Saying Syria and Syrians have said they'd be very opposed to any attack on an Arab neighbor -- Catherine.

CALLAWAY: All right, thank you James. Denis Halliday, thanks for standing by. I wanted to go ahead and get as many questions as I could into James. We may be in danger of losing the satellite feed there, and I wanted to make sure we were able to speak with him. Thank you for being so patient. You know, what -- what kind of plan would the -- do you think -- the U.N. would propose. Would we see another effort to get weapons inspections back on track in Iraq? And we have seen that -- that has failed miserably in the past. Would this be something that would be pursued again?

HALLIDAY: Well, thank you, Catherine.

I must say I'm happy to see James. He's an old friend of mine from Baghdad. He was there when I was there last year.

I would hope that in the Security Council of the United Nations, because that's where the issue would be considered, we would begin to see not just Russia, China and France, but other countries like my own, Ireland, trying to convince the United States that the way to resolve this crisis -- and it is a huge crisis for the Middle East -- is to lift the economic embargo on the Iraqi people, allow the economy to be rebuilt, while at the same time then imposing the weapons inspections which is what I believe Baghdad will accept.

And also, perhaps, controlling our manufacture and sale of weapons and arms to the Middle East, including Iraq. That would be a U.N. provision under Resolution 687. We've got to look at both ends of the weapons problem.

CALLAWAY: And, sir, I hate to be the pessimistic person here, but we've seen these agreements or so-called agreements made, the line in the sand drawn, only to see that line moved again when these so- called agreements of an inspection fall through. What would be different this time?

HALLIDAY: Well, you know, we've lots of persuasions. I mean, we have our friends in Israel who are neglecting resolutions and likewise in the case of Iraq. Not -- that does not justify war, of course. And we've got to have a civilized diplomatic dialogue with Baghdad, we've got to remember they were friends and allies of the United States, maybe we could ask Mr. Rumsfeld to return to Baghdad. He knows Saddam Hussein; he's been there several times.

There's a need to have a dialogue, to understand what would make this thing work, not just for Iraq but for, of course, Kuwait, the Saudis, Israelis, and of course the United States and the rest of us around the world. There is a way to do this, and war is clearly not the answer. Violence doesn't pay, it simply produces more violence. So, we need to change our approach.

We could use the Clinton model, for example, that was used in the case of North Korea, and take our courage in our hands and go there and have a dialogue. I mean, that would seem to me to be the rational thing to do.

CALLAWAY: CNN's James Marton and Denis Halliday, thank you very much for being with us this morning to discuss this.

HALLIDAY: Thank you.

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