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CNN Saturday Morning News
Authorities Determine Four D.C. Area Killing Spree Victims Killed With Same Weapon
Aired October 05, 2002 - 07:06 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: As we have reported, authorities have determined that the same weapon was used to kill at least four of the six people in the D.C. area sniper shootings.
And CNN's David Mattingly tells us what investigators have learned about the weapon, the ammunition, and the sniper.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Colt AR-15 semiautomatic assault rifle, built for power and accuracy, once made for the military, now of interest to police and gun collectors.
And the traditional bolt-action high-powered rifle, when accuracy counts, the favorite of hunters and military snipers.
Now one of these rifles, a possible weapon of choice for a gunman killing at random.
JOSEPH RIEHL, ATF AGENT: If you've seen anybody who may have weapons similar to this, that have been suspicious in their activity, that you call Chief Moose and his department on the hotline...
MATTINGLY: Maryland investigators narrowing their search to these weapons by starting with the killer's bullets, .223-caliber rounds in combination with either of the two rifles can produce pinpoint accuracy from hundreds of yards away and fragment into pieces on impact.
RIEHL: Something like this usually goes in small, and the devastation that they're designed to do could be significant.
MATTINGLY: Though outlawed in 1994, AR-15s manufactured before the ban are still sold legally. In some states, the $1,800 rifle can be bought and after electronic background checks on the street in a matter of minutes.
(on camera): How close do you have to be to have some sort of reliable shot?
JIM BARNES, GEORGIA GUNSHOP MANAGER: Well, in competition (UNINTELLIGIBLE), they go out 500 or 600 yards with this.
MATTINGLY: Five or 600 yards? What about a novice, someone who has minimal training? BARNES: Oh, probably 200 to 300 yards.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Proficiency can be easy to come by. After only one practice session, this AR-15 owner has almost found his target.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Anybody could do this.
MIKE BROOKS, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It's not something pleasant to talk about, but it sounds as if the person who's involved, the person or persons involved in these shootings, know what he or she is doing. And probably have had some kind of marksmanship training...
MATTINGLY: Training that could suggest a background in hunting, law enforcement, or military.
But so far, no conclusions, and no indications of whether the weapon was purchased legally or illegally, only the painfully obvious, that this killer has the patience and cruelty to seek out random innocent targets and find them with deadly accuracy.
David Mattingly, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CALLAWAY: And now to discuss the Maryland and Washington shootings, we're joined by CNN law enforcement analyst Mike Brooks, who we just saw in that piece.
Thanks for being with us this morning.
BROOKS: Good to be here, Catherine.
CALLAWAY: Do we know anything new?
BROOKS: Well, we now know that the shooting in Washington, D.C., the 73-year-old man that was shot, is linked to the shootings in Montgomery County. And initially, right after all the shootings first happened in Montgomery County, the lookout that law enforcement was giving was for this van. It was southbound on George Avenue towards the district.
CALLAWAY: Right.
BROOKS: And this was in the -- which was right toward the D.C. line. And this shooting with this man was only a block over the D.C. line. So it's -- it -- first brought their attention to it because there was this close proximity to Montgomery County, but now they know it for sure, it is linked with it.
CALLAWAY: It is linked.
BROOKS: Yes.
CALLAWAY: And, you know, you brought in some of the bullets that they were talking about here. These are tremendous. BROOKS: Yes, they are. This is a .223 round, and this is the most common of the ones they're looking at. There's a possibility -- they were looking at four different rounds, all different variations, similar to the .223 round, but the .223 is probably the most common people are familiar with. You know, used, it's used in the civilian version of the M-16, which is the Colt AR-15...
CALLAWAY: Yes, let's show that...
BROOKS: ... and other bolt-action...
CALLAWAY: ... I think we have one of those. The Colt AR-15 is civilian version of -- do we have a picture of that?
BROOKS: Right.
CALLAWAY: In the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), do we have it? I guess we don't.
Anyway, and also the -- a hunting rifle is also a possibility.
BROOKS: Absolutely. There are some of these rounds are also will fit a bolt-action hunting rifle. So it's not out of the realm of possibility, it could be someone who has a hunting background, a military background, law enforcement background, or someone who's just -- could be an avid hunter, as I said, and has received some kind of marksmanship training.
From the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), from talking to the people, some folks close to the investigation, one of the shootings took place approximately 200 yards away. Now, it -- and the (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
CALLAWAY: That's a long way, Mike.
BROOKS: That is a long way. It's two football fields. So, you know, kind of put it in perspective. And you most likely would have to know sort of what you're doing. We talked to the gentleman in the gun shop in David Mattingly's piece said you can shoot up to, it's good up to 600 yards.
CALLAWAY: Right.
BROOKS: And someone with no training, it would be good for 100, 100 yards. But from talking to the people close to the investigation, it seems as if right now these people did have some kind of training. And the ATF, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms spokesman yesterday said that they believe also that this person has -- probably had some kind of marksmanship training.
CALLAWAY: Well, had to. I mean, one bullet? I mean, granted, these are tremendous bullets...
BROOKS: Right.
CALLAWAY: ... the .223s. But you would have to have at least some training to be able to... BROOKS: I would say so, and...
CALLAWAY: ... shoot with one bullet.
BROOKS: ... from all the training, weapons training I've had with my law enforcement background, I would say that most likely this person did have to have some kind of training.
CALLAWAY: And for those of us who are not in this, is -- into this as much as you are, it's hard to imagine that they can't tell at least what direction the bullet came from or, you know, that there's not more information that someone can fire a weapon like that and just disappear.
BROOKS: Well, one of the things, they're doing two things right now with the shootings in D.C. -- in Maryland and now D.C. They're doing a geological profile and also a psychological profile. The geological profile, they're trying to figure out exactly where the round came from. You know, the angle, how high the person was, those kind of things.
Because there were no shell casings left on the ground, so figuring out where the round came from, that's what they're trying to do on the geological side.
On the psychological side, they're trying to figure out exactly what makes this person tick...
CALLAWAY: Right.
BROOKS: ... what is in this person's mind? So they're...
CALLAWAY: I think...
BROOKS: ... taking two tracks on this. And investigators in Montgomery County working in conjunction with ATF and the FBI are doing -- you know, they're very good out there in Montgomery.
CALLAWAY: So this gunman, gunperson...
BROOKS: Right.
CALLAWAY: ... is picking up the casings before they leave.
BROOKS: Most likely. And if they were shooting from inside of a van -- yesterday said there's a possibility that the person is, there's a shooter and possibly a driver. So they're probably shooting inside of the van, of the van. If the round is ejected on a gun like the AR-15, where it's automatically, the shell casing is automatically ejected out...
CALLAWAY: Right.
BROOKS: ... it could be on the ground or inside the truck. The other one, if they're using a bolt action, it will be inside, and it will only be released, and it would be very easy to catch and keep. CALLAWAY: So then connect it for those, we should tell everyone, the results are not back yet on two of the other victims, right?
BROOKS: No, they're not. The -- all of the evidence has been taken to the ATF lab in Rockville, Maryland, and they're doing a comparison there of the fragments that were taken from the bodies of the victims.
CALLAWAY: Don't want you to go without talking to you about the al Qaeda arrests. Interesting development here, these people will apparently -- were apparently shooting guns in a gravel pit, and a sheriff's deputy...
BROOKS: Right.
CALLAWAY: ... thought something was up with this...
BROOKS: Exactly, vigilant deputy.
CALLAWAY: ... that when they bought the ticket to Afghanistan, that's a really good clue that something's amiss, you know.
BROOKS: Yes, investigators would call that a clue. But look at these folks as kind of al Qaeda mercenaries, if you will, coming from United States. Now, there is -- there are two people out, one of them from Jordan, apparently, who is living in the Portland area.
But I think the deputy sheriff in Washington who saw these people, stopped, got their names. At the time he didn't know what was really going on. But again, he was being vigilant. He took down the names. And they, at the time, they were not engaged in any criminal activity.
So they took this information, gave it to the Joint Terrorism Task Force, which is a combination of FBI, local sheriffs, local police, all within, within the Portland area, and they, and they hunted -- did a great job of beating the bushes and coming up with these suspects.
CALLAWAY: You know, "The New York Times" is reporting this morning that one of the six arrested was a female, or is a female.
BROOKS: Right.
CALLAWAY: That's unusual, isn't it?
BROOKS: It is unusual, but it -- I think she is an American, so she could have been a follower along with these folks. And there's nothing to say that, you know, that women aren't, aren't also terrorists. We've seen this back a number of years ago. And but for Islam and for Muslim terrorists, it is unusual.
CALLAWAY: All right, thank you, Mike Brooks, CNN law enforcement analyst, thanks for being with us. You're going to be back with us a little bit later.
BROOKS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Yes, going to be back at 8:00.
CALLAWAY: Thanks, Mike.
BROOKS: Sure.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Killed With Same Weapon>
Aired October 5, 2002 - 07:06 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: As we have reported, authorities have determined that the same weapon was used to kill at least four of the six people in the D.C. area sniper shootings.
And CNN's David Mattingly tells us what investigators have learned about the weapon, the ammunition, and the sniper.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Colt AR-15 semiautomatic assault rifle, built for power and accuracy, once made for the military, now of interest to police and gun collectors.
And the traditional bolt-action high-powered rifle, when accuracy counts, the favorite of hunters and military snipers.
Now one of these rifles, a possible weapon of choice for a gunman killing at random.
JOSEPH RIEHL, ATF AGENT: If you've seen anybody who may have weapons similar to this, that have been suspicious in their activity, that you call Chief Moose and his department on the hotline...
MATTINGLY: Maryland investigators narrowing their search to these weapons by starting with the killer's bullets, .223-caliber rounds in combination with either of the two rifles can produce pinpoint accuracy from hundreds of yards away and fragment into pieces on impact.
RIEHL: Something like this usually goes in small, and the devastation that they're designed to do could be significant.
MATTINGLY: Though outlawed in 1994, AR-15s manufactured before the ban are still sold legally. In some states, the $1,800 rifle can be bought and after electronic background checks on the street in a matter of minutes.
(on camera): How close do you have to be to have some sort of reliable shot?
JIM BARNES, GEORGIA GUNSHOP MANAGER: Well, in competition (UNINTELLIGIBLE), they go out 500 or 600 yards with this.
MATTINGLY: Five or 600 yards? What about a novice, someone who has minimal training? BARNES: Oh, probably 200 to 300 yards.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Proficiency can be easy to come by. After only one practice session, this AR-15 owner has almost found his target.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Anybody could do this.
MIKE BROOKS, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It's not something pleasant to talk about, but it sounds as if the person who's involved, the person or persons involved in these shootings, know what he or she is doing. And probably have had some kind of marksmanship training...
MATTINGLY: Training that could suggest a background in hunting, law enforcement, or military.
But so far, no conclusions, and no indications of whether the weapon was purchased legally or illegally, only the painfully obvious, that this killer has the patience and cruelty to seek out random innocent targets and find them with deadly accuracy.
David Mattingly, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CALLAWAY: And now to discuss the Maryland and Washington shootings, we're joined by CNN law enforcement analyst Mike Brooks, who we just saw in that piece.
Thanks for being with us this morning.
BROOKS: Good to be here, Catherine.
CALLAWAY: Do we know anything new?
BROOKS: Well, we now know that the shooting in Washington, D.C., the 73-year-old man that was shot, is linked to the shootings in Montgomery County. And initially, right after all the shootings first happened in Montgomery County, the lookout that law enforcement was giving was for this van. It was southbound on George Avenue towards the district.
CALLAWAY: Right.
BROOKS: And this was in the -- which was right toward the D.C. line. And this shooting with this man was only a block over the D.C. line. So it's -- it -- first brought their attention to it because there was this close proximity to Montgomery County, but now they know it for sure, it is linked with it.
CALLAWAY: It is linked.
BROOKS: Yes.
CALLAWAY: And, you know, you brought in some of the bullets that they were talking about here. These are tremendous. BROOKS: Yes, they are. This is a .223 round, and this is the most common of the ones they're looking at. There's a possibility -- they were looking at four different rounds, all different variations, similar to the .223 round, but the .223 is probably the most common people are familiar with. You know, used, it's used in the civilian version of the M-16, which is the Colt AR-15...
CALLAWAY: Yes, let's show that...
BROOKS: ... and other bolt-action...
CALLAWAY: ... I think we have one of those. The Colt AR-15 is civilian version of -- do we have a picture of that?
BROOKS: Right.
CALLAWAY: In the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), do we have it? I guess we don't.
Anyway, and also the -- a hunting rifle is also a possibility.
BROOKS: Absolutely. There are some of these rounds are also will fit a bolt-action hunting rifle. So it's not out of the realm of possibility, it could be someone who has a hunting background, a military background, law enforcement background, or someone who's just -- could be an avid hunter, as I said, and has received some kind of marksmanship training.
From the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), from talking to the people, some folks close to the investigation, one of the shootings took place approximately 200 yards away. Now, it -- and the (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
CALLAWAY: That's a long way, Mike.
BROOKS: That is a long way. It's two football fields. So, you know, kind of put it in perspective. And you most likely would have to know sort of what you're doing. We talked to the gentleman in the gun shop in David Mattingly's piece said you can shoot up to, it's good up to 600 yards.
CALLAWAY: Right.
BROOKS: And someone with no training, it would be good for 100, 100 yards. But from talking to the people close to the investigation, it seems as if right now these people did have some kind of training. And the ATF, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms spokesman yesterday said that they believe also that this person has -- probably had some kind of marksmanship training.
CALLAWAY: Well, had to. I mean, one bullet? I mean, granted, these are tremendous bullets...
BROOKS: Right.
CALLAWAY: ... the .223s. But you would have to have at least some training to be able to... BROOKS: I would say so, and...
CALLAWAY: ... shoot with one bullet.
BROOKS: ... from all the training, weapons training I've had with my law enforcement background, I would say that most likely this person did have to have some kind of training.
CALLAWAY: And for those of us who are not in this, is -- into this as much as you are, it's hard to imagine that they can't tell at least what direction the bullet came from or, you know, that there's not more information that someone can fire a weapon like that and just disappear.
BROOKS: Well, one of the things, they're doing two things right now with the shootings in D.C. -- in Maryland and now D.C. They're doing a geological profile and also a psychological profile. The geological profile, they're trying to figure out exactly where the round came from. You know, the angle, how high the person was, those kind of things.
Because there were no shell casings left on the ground, so figuring out where the round came from, that's what they're trying to do on the geological side.
On the psychological side, they're trying to figure out exactly what makes this person tick...
CALLAWAY: Right.
BROOKS: ... what is in this person's mind? So they're...
CALLAWAY: I think...
BROOKS: ... taking two tracks on this. And investigators in Montgomery County working in conjunction with ATF and the FBI are doing -- you know, they're very good out there in Montgomery.
CALLAWAY: So this gunman, gunperson...
BROOKS: Right.
CALLAWAY: ... is picking up the casings before they leave.
BROOKS: Most likely. And if they were shooting from inside of a van -- yesterday said there's a possibility that the person is, there's a shooter and possibly a driver. So they're probably shooting inside of the van, of the van. If the round is ejected on a gun like the AR-15, where it's automatically, the shell casing is automatically ejected out...
CALLAWAY: Right.
BROOKS: ... it could be on the ground or inside the truck. The other one, if they're using a bolt action, it will be inside, and it will only be released, and it would be very easy to catch and keep. CALLAWAY: So then connect it for those, we should tell everyone, the results are not back yet on two of the other victims, right?
BROOKS: No, they're not. The -- all of the evidence has been taken to the ATF lab in Rockville, Maryland, and they're doing a comparison there of the fragments that were taken from the bodies of the victims.
CALLAWAY: Don't want you to go without talking to you about the al Qaeda arrests. Interesting development here, these people will apparently -- were apparently shooting guns in a gravel pit, and a sheriff's deputy...
BROOKS: Right.
CALLAWAY: ... thought something was up with this...
BROOKS: Exactly, vigilant deputy.
CALLAWAY: ... that when they bought the ticket to Afghanistan, that's a really good clue that something's amiss, you know.
BROOKS: Yes, investigators would call that a clue. But look at these folks as kind of al Qaeda mercenaries, if you will, coming from United States. Now, there is -- there are two people out, one of them from Jordan, apparently, who is living in the Portland area.
But I think the deputy sheriff in Washington who saw these people, stopped, got their names. At the time he didn't know what was really going on. But again, he was being vigilant. He took down the names. And they, at the time, they were not engaged in any criminal activity.
So they took this information, gave it to the Joint Terrorism Task Force, which is a combination of FBI, local sheriffs, local police, all within, within the Portland area, and they, and they hunted -- did a great job of beating the bushes and coming up with these suspects.
CALLAWAY: You know, "The New York Times" is reporting this morning that one of the six arrested was a female, or is a female.
BROOKS: Right.
CALLAWAY: That's unusual, isn't it?
BROOKS: It is unusual, but it -- I think she is an American, so she could have been a follower along with these folks. And there's nothing to say that, you know, that women aren't, aren't also terrorists. We've seen this back a number of years ago. And but for Islam and for Muslim terrorists, it is unusual.
CALLAWAY: All right, thank you, Mike Brooks, CNN law enforcement analyst, thanks for being with us. You're going to be back with us a little bit later.
BROOKS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Yes, going to be back at 8:00.
CALLAWAY: Thanks, Mike.
BROOKS: Sure.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Killed With Same Weapon>
