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CNN Saturday Morning News
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Aired December 28, 2002 - 08:18 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: North Korea's revived nuclear program is a sore point on what President Bush calls the axis of evil. We're going to talk about that and the nuclear capabilities of Iraq and Iran, other nations the president has branded as evil, with CNN's military analyst, General Wesley Clark, who is with us from Little Rock, Arkansas this morning.
Thanks for getting up early this morning.
GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST, FORMER NATO SUPREME COMMANDER: Good morning, Catherine.
CALLAWAY: A lot to talk about with the axis of evil.
CLARK: There certainly is.
CALLAWAY: Yes, it seems that President Bush's speech not too long ago talking about the axis of evil, lots of food for that now with North Korea now expelling the IAEA inspectors.
CLARK: Well, we've been looking at these nations for a long time. We've been calling them rogue nations for years because all three of these nations are nations that don't support international law, don't live up to their international agreements and cause trouble.
Iran, of course, refusing to let the IAEA look at the buildings that the United States believes may be the centerpiece of its nuclear weapons program. North Korea we've seen moving ahead with its nuclear weapons program. And, of course, Iraq not letting the inspectors back in.
But if you look at the world that we're in, we can't forget about the war on terror and Osama bin Laden and the 3,000 dead in this country in 2001 on 9/11. And as far as we know, that had nothing directly to do with the axis of evil. In fact, it's Pakistan, our ally in the war on terror, that helped North Korea's nuclear program. It's Saudi Arabia, our ally in the Gulf, who has been sending funding out that's been supporting militant Islam. It's Syria, Israel's neighbor, that's been sheltering Hezbollah and is still cooperating with us, supposedly, in intelligence.
So there are lots of ambiguities and complexities out there.
CALLAWAY: Right. The axis of evil is getting a little bit complicated. Should the focus not be on Iran at this point? CLARK: I think many of us would feel that Iran is actually the greater real threat. It does have an effective terror program. Their terrorists have killed Americans. They are moving ahead with their nuclear program. And what they're doing is actually at this point buying time. They want to cooperate with the United States. They don't object if we take out their enemy, Saddam Hussein.
CALLAWAY: Yes, what do they have to lose?
CLARK: Exactly.
CALLAWAY: So why? Why are, why does the U.S. not appear to be focusing on Iran right now? Why is Iraq at the top of the agenda?
CLARK: Well, I think, I think there are a lot of reasons to focus on Iraq. But I think that there's, it's a variety of motives. It's the violation of the U.N. Security Council resolution. It's because they are moving toward a program but they don't have it. It's to finish unfinished business from the Gulf War. It's a way of putting pressure on Saudi Arabia by opening up another oil source. There are all kinds of motivations behind this.
CALLAWAY: Right. What is the concern, the real concern with North Korea, though? Is it not using nuclear weapons, but perhaps selling weapons grade plutonium? Wouldn't that be the biggest concern, that there would be no control over that?
CLARK: I think that's exactly right, Catherine, because what we've got to pay attention to is the fact not that North Korea might have nuclear weapons, but that their technology will spread. Just as they've sold SCUDs -- we recently intercepted a SCUD shipment to Yemen...
CALLAWAY: Right.
CLARK: ... they're going to spread this nuclear technology.
CALLAWAY: What about the U.S. troops in South Korea? What does this do? Does this complicate it more?
CLARK: It probably does complicate it. It gives us the ability to put leverage on the North. But in 1994, when we contemplated taking the same kind of North Korean violations to the United Nations, of course, people in the United Nations said OK, bring it to us, but now what is it you want us to do? And we said well, we've got to put sanctions on the North. The North said give us a blockade, we'll call it an act of war.
And then we ended up in a situation where we looked all at our forces in South Korea and said don't have enough of them there, if they call it an act of war they might really mean it, so therefore we've got to reinforce our forces. And we found ourselves on the verge of a competitive arms buildup.
CALLAWAY: Should, in your opinion, there be more pressure on North Korea from the U.S.? CLARK: I think that it's productive to bring the United Nations into the dialogue, but as a complement to a behind-the-scenes effort between the United States and our allies and friends in Northeast Asia -- China and Russia, as well as Japan. I don't think we have to get out front directly working with the North Koreans at this point. They, after all, did violate the agreement. But what we've got to do is get others to intercede.
CALLAWAY: Do you think that's going to happen?
CLARK: I think it's, we're certainly going to make the effort to do that. It depends on how much leverage we've got, how much influence we have. And...
CALLAWAY: You mean the U.S.?
CLARK: Right. And also there's a cross rough here between our discussions with the Russians on North Korea and our discussions with the Russians on Iraq. And they're likely to say to us, what's it worth to you? And give us more of a free hand in Chechnya, for example.
CALLAWAY: Right. I know, General, you're going to be back with us in just a few minutes to answer a lot of questions out there. We're just touching on this topic. You'll be back to answer some more questions.
Thank you.
CLARK: Thank you, Catherine.
CALLAWAY: Also, former NATO supreme allied commander.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired December 28, 2002 - 08:18 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: North Korea's revived nuclear program is a sore point on what President Bush calls the axis of evil. We're going to talk about that and the nuclear capabilities of Iraq and Iran, other nations the president has branded as evil, with CNN's military analyst, General Wesley Clark, who is with us from Little Rock, Arkansas this morning.
Thanks for getting up early this morning.
GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST, FORMER NATO SUPREME COMMANDER: Good morning, Catherine.
CALLAWAY: A lot to talk about with the axis of evil.
CLARK: There certainly is.
CALLAWAY: Yes, it seems that President Bush's speech not too long ago talking about the axis of evil, lots of food for that now with North Korea now expelling the IAEA inspectors.
CLARK: Well, we've been looking at these nations for a long time. We've been calling them rogue nations for years because all three of these nations are nations that don't support international law, don't live up to their international agreements and cause trouble.
Iran, of course, refusing to let the IAEA look at the buildings that the United States believes may be the centerpiece of its nuclear weapons program. North Korea we've seen moving ahead with its nuclear weapons program. And, of course, Iraq not letting the inspectors back in.
But if you look at the world that we're in, we can't forget about the war on terror and Osama bin Laden and the 3,000 dead in this country in 2001 on 9/11. And as far as we know, that had nothing directly to do with the axis of evil. In fact, it's Pakistan, our ally in the war on terror, that helped North Korea's nuclear program. It's Saudi Arabia, our ally in the Gulf, who has been sending funding out that's been supporting militant Islam. It's Syria, Israel's neighbor, that's been sheltering Hezbollah and is still cooperating with us, supposedly, in intelligence.
So there are lots of ambiguities and complexities out there.
CALLAWAY: Right. The axis of evil is getting a little bit complicated. Should the focus not be on Iran at this point? CLARK: I think many of us would feel that Iran is actually the greater real threat. It does have an effective terror program. Their terrorists have killed Americans. They are moving ahead with their nuclear program. And what they're doing is actually at this point buying time. They want to cooperate with the United States. They don't object if we take out their enemy, Saddam Hussein.
CALLAWAY: Yes, what do they have to lose?
CLARK: Exactly.
CALLAWAY: So why? Why are, why does the U.S. not appear to be focusing on Iran right now? Why is Iraq at the top of the agenda?
CLARK: Well, I think, I think there are a lot of reasons to focus on Iraq. But I think that there's, it's a variety of motives. It's the violation of the U.N. Security Council resolution. It's because they are moving toward a program but they don't have it. It's to finish unfinished business from the Gulf War. It's a way of putting pressure on Saudi Arabia by opening up another oil source. There are all kinds of motivations behind this.
CALLAWAY: Right. What is the concern, the real concern with North Korea, though? Is it not using nuclear weapons, but perhaps selling weapons grade plutonium? Wouldn't that be the biggest concern, that there would be no control over that?
CLARK: I think that's exactly right, Catherine, because what we've got to pay attention to is the fact not that North Korea might have nuclear weapons, but that their technology will spread. Just as they've sold SCUDs -- we recently intercepted a SCUD shipment to Yemen...
CALLAWAY: Right.
CLARK: ... they're going to spread this nuclear technology.
CALLAWAY: What about the U.S. troops in South Korea? What does this do? Does this complicate it more?
CLARK: It probably does complicate it. It gives us the ability to put leverage on the North. But in 1994, when we contemplated taking the same kind of North Korean violations to the United Nations, of course, people in the United Nations said OK, bring it to us, but now what is it you want us to do? And we said well, we've got to put sanctions on the North. The North said give us a blockade, we'll call it an act of war.
And then we ended up in a situation where we looked all at our forces in South Korea and said don't have enough of them there, if they call it an act of war they might really mean it, so therefore we've got to reinforce our forces. And we found ourselves on the verge of a competitive arms buildup.
CALLAWAY: Should, in your opinion, there be more pressure on North Korea from the U.S.? CLARK: I think that it's productive to bring the United Nations into the dialogue, but as a complement to a behind-the-scenes effort between the United States and our allies and friends in Northeast Asia -- China and Russia, as well as Japan. I don't think we have to get out front directly working with the North Koreans at this point. They, after all, did violate the agreement. But what we've got to do is get others to intercede.
CALLAWAY: Do you think that's going to happen?
CLARK: I think it's, we're certainly going to make the effort to do that. It depends on how much leverage we've got, how much influence we have. And...
CALLAWAY: You mean the U.S.?
CLARK: Right. And also there's a cross rough here between our discussions with the Russians on North Korea and our discussions with the Russians on Iraq. And they're likely to say to us, what's it worth to you? And give us more of a free hand in Chechnya, for example.
CALLAWAY: Right. I know, General, you're going to be back with us in just a few minutes to answer a lot of questions out there. We're just touching on this topic. You'll be back to answer some more questions.
Thank you.
CLARK: Thank you, Catherine.
CALLAWAY: Also, former NATO supreme allied commander.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
