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CNN Saturday Morning News
Illinois Death Row Pardons
Aired January 11, 2003 - 08:24 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: You are looking at a wonderful day for this man, Madison Hobley, 42 years old. He was convicted of killing seven people in a 1987 arson fire, including his wife and son, but he has been pardoned by Governor George Ryan, and that is exactly what we are going to talk about.
We return now to that debate in Illinois where outgoing Governor George Ryan has pardoned four death row inmates and, today is expected to spare 140 more. As you can imagine, the action has some people enraged. We are joining that debate this morning with trial attorney Michael Smerconish in Philadelphia.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Good morning Michael.
MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: How are you?
COLLINS: I am great, thank you. And the president of the ACLU in Miami, Lida Rodriguez-Taseff. Good morning to you Lida.
LIDA RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF, PRES., ACLU MIAMI: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Heidi. How are you?
COLLINS: Thanks for being here, both of you. Let's go ahead and start this debate. Clearly, it seems to me that the two of you differ on the victims and how this whole thing makes the victims' families feel.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: You know, I don't know that we necessarily differ on the victims. I'm all for victim's rights and that this is what this is about and convicting innocent people to die is not in any way protecting the victims. In fact, it's victimizing them twice. Once...
COLLINS: Michael...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... when they were brutalized and then again -- go ahead, Michael -- but then again...
SMERCONISH: Well...
(CROSSTALK)
SMERCONISH: ... I'm worried that they're being victimized by Governor Ryan in this case. I mean you know I don't think Lida should be having a mimosa down there in Miami any time soon because I don't know that this is a time for celebration. This is a governor whose legacy is in doubt. His administration has been racked by scandal and there's a federal trial going to start next week having to do with improprieties around him.
He wants to be known as the guy who pardoned all these people from death row and not the man who had a scandalous administration. And the prosecutors maintain that these guys are guilty, and so I'm not ready to jump on board with the celebration.
COLLINS: But Lida...
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: I'm sorry, you say that you would get better justice if you just flipped a coin. Is that really what you think?
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: You say...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: That's absolutely right.
(CROSSTALK)
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: What we're talking about is you had 25 people on Illinois' death row, 13 of them, that is over half, 13 of them walked away from prison because they were innocent, and the other 12 were executed. You had a man on death row in Illinois come within two days of being executed who was later exonerated, meaning it wasn't that he was cleared on a technicality, it wasn't that didn't read him his Miranda rights, it's that he was innocent.
He didn't do the crime, and that's what this is about. And you know, for whatever reason, Governor Ryan is not a Johnny come lately on this issue. He's imposed a moratorium in Illinois in the year 2000 specifically to study these cases and that's...
(CROSSTALK)
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... what he did.
SMERCONISH: Lida, I'm not sure about that because when he came into office, he was a pro death penalty advocate and now he has changed his tune at a time when his own career needs a lifesaver of sorts. And I go back to the fact that in the Chicago newspapers this morning, you have quotes from the prosecutors of these cases, not just one rogue cop, not just one district attorney, but a whole host of them who are saying hey, I know the facts of this case and it's outrageous for this governor to now use the word innocent in connection with this particular defendant or this particular perpetrator.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: I'm glad you bring up the word "rogue cop" because that's what were talking about. There is a rogue cop in Illinois that was torturing, not just beating, not just slapping around, torturing suspects. This rogue cop was in 1983, had to be fired because he was torturing people. These four people were tortured into confessing.
They were beaten. They had hoods put over their heads and suffocated. They had guns pointed at their heads. These -- we're talking about a problem that is not just in Illinois, not just with this governor who you say is trying to protect his legacy, and he maintains that he is pro death penalty.
(CROSSTALK)
SMERCONISH: Lida, what about...
(CROSSTALK)
SMERCONISH: But, listen let me just say this. A guy who's a bad cop who would beat a confession out of someone, he should be on death row and maybe you and I could agree on that. But you know, it's possible to beat a confession out of a guilty person. And so if today, Governor Ryan stands up and now, all of a sudden, he says here are 160 more individuals on death row, I'm going to convert it to life in prison, I think that that's a slap in the face, not only to the victims, but the jury system, all of those jurors who sat there and all those cases and decided this is a person who decides -- who needs death. And a lot of those defendants confessed and now they're still going to get a free ride.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Ryan has said repeatedly that the system is broken. I think you both would agree on that. Let me just give you a quote also from the Cook County State's Attorney, Richard Devine who was -- that's where Leroy Orange, one of the men was being held.
He says that by Governor Ryan's actions today, the governor has beached faith with the memory of the dead victims, their families, and the people he was elected to serve. Do you think this is going to become widespread, this sort of action?
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: The action of releasing innocent people from death row who are truly innocent has been going on since 1977. Michael knows very well that in this country, we have had to release 102 people -- 102 people across the country who are innocent, who are on death row, who were proven innocent. They were proven innocent by irrefutable evidence, such as DNA, such as witnesses talking about what they really saw. We are talking about a problem, not of whether the death penalty is good or bad or right or wrong, but a problem of whether or not executing innocent people is right or wrong.
SMERCONISH: Heidi...
(CROSSTALK)
SMERCONISH: ... the answer to your question is...
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: ... Michael... SMERCONISH: The answer to your question is does this thing have legs and the answer is, no it doesn't. Look in California a week, two weeks ago Westerfield is sentenced to die. The whole country says that if you take a 7-year-old out of her bed and you murder her after raping her, you should die.
The sniper case, it's being tried in Virginia because Americans want those two guys, if they're guilty, put down like the dogs that they are. And so the bottom line is the country wants it, fix the system, don't go throwing it out.
COLLINS: All right...
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Michael Smerconish and Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, we are going to have to call it quits. We do thank you so much...
SMERCONISH: OK.
COLLINS: ... for being here with us today, though.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Thank you.
SMERCONISH: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired January 11, 2003 - 08:24 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: You are looking at a wonderful day for this man, Madison Hobley, 42 years old. He was convicted of killing seven people in a 1987 arson fire, including his wife and son, but he has been pardoned by Governor George Ryan, and that is exactly what we are going to talk about.
We return now to that debate in Illinois where outgoing Governor George Ryan has pardoned four death row inmates and, today is expected to spare 140 more. As you can imagine, the action has some people enraged. We are joining that debate this morning with trial attorney Michael Smerconish in Philadelphia.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Good morning Michael.
MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: How are you?
COLLINS: I am great, thank you. And the president of the ACLU in Miami, Lida Rodriguez-Taseff. Good morning to you Lida.
LIDA RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF, PRES., ACLU MIAMI: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Heidi. How are you?
COLLINS: Thanks for being here, both of you. Let's go ahead and start this debate. Clearly, it seems to me that the two of you differ on the victims and how this whole thing makes the victims' families feel.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: You know, I don't know that we necessarily differ on the victims. I'm all for victim's rights and that this is what this is about and convicting innocent people to die is not in any way protecting the victims. In fact, it's victimizing them twice. Once...
COLLINS: Michael...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... when they were brutalized and then again -- go ahead, Michael -- but then again...
SMERCONISH: Well...
(CROSSTALK)
SMERCONISH: ... I'm worried that they're being victimized by Governor Ryan in this case. I mean you know I don't think Lida should be having a mimosa down there in Miami any time soon because I don't know that this is a time for celebration. This is a governor whose legacy is in doubt. His administration has been racked by scandal and there's a federal trial going to start next week having to do with improprieties around him.
He wants to be known as the guy who pardoned all these people from death row and not the man who had a scandalous administration. And the prosecutors maintain that these guys are guilty, and so I'm not ready to jump on board with the celebration.
COLLINS: But Lida...
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: I'm sorry, you say that you would get better justice if you just flipped a coin. Is that really what you think?
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: You say...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: That's absolutely right.
(CROSSTALK)
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: What we're talking about is you had 25 people on Illinois' death row, 13 of them, that is over half, 13 of them walked away from prison because they were innocent, and the other 12 were executed. You had a man on death row in Illinois come within two days of being executed who was later exonerated, meaning it wasn't that he was cleared on a technicality, it wasn't that didn't read him his Miranda rights, it's that he was innocent.
He didn't do the crime, and that's what this is about. And you know, for whatever reason, Governor Ryan is not a Johnny come lately on this issue. He's imposed a moratorium in Illinois in the year 2000 specifically to study these cases and that's...
(CROSSTALK)
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... what he did.
SMERCONISH: Lida, I'm not sure about that because when he came into office, he was a pro death penalty advocate and now he has changed his tune at a time when his own career needs a lifesaver of sorts. And I go back to the fact that in the Chicago newspapers this morning, you have quotes from the prosecutors of these cases, not just one rogue cop, not just one district attorney, but a whole host of them who are saying hey, I know the facts of this case and it's outrageous for this governor to now use the word innocent in connection with this particular defendant or this particular perpetrator.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: I'm glad you bring up the word "rogue cop" because that's what were talking about. There is a rogue cop in Illinois that was torturing, not just beating, not just slapping around, torturing suspects. This rogue cop was in 1983, had to be fired because he was torturing people. These four people were tortured into confessing.
They were beaten. They had hoods put over their heads and suffocated. They had guns pointed at their heads. These -- we're talking about a problem that is not just in Illinois, not just with this governor who you say is trying to protect his legacy, and he maintains that he is pro death penalty.
(CROSSTALK)
SMERCONISH: Lida, what about...
(CROSSTALK)
SMERCONISH: But, listen let me just say this. A guy who's a bad cop who would beat a confession out of someone, he should be on death row and maybe you and I could agree on that. But you know, it's possible to beat a confession out of a guilty person. And so if today, Governor Ryan stands up and now, all of a sudden, he says here are 160 more individuals on death row, I'm going to convert it to life in prison, I think that that's a slap in the face, not only to the victims, but the jury system, all of those jurors who sat there and all those cases and decided this is a person who decides -- who needs death. And a lot of those defendants confessed and now they're still going to get a free ride.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Ryan has said repeatedly that the system is broken. I think you both would agree on that. Let me just give you a quote also from the Cook County State's Attorney, Richard Devine who was -- that's where Leroy Orange, one of the men was being held.
He says that by Governor Ryan's actions today, the governor has beached faith with the memory of the dead victims, their families, and the people he was elected to serve. Do you think this is going to become widespread, this sort of action?
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: The action of releasing innocent people from death row who are truly innocent has been going on since 1977. Michael knows very well that in this country, we have had to release 102 people -- 102 people across the country who are innocent, who are on death row, who were proven innocent. They were proven innocent by irrefutable evidence, such as DNA, such as witnesses talking about what they really saw. We are talking about a problem, not of whether the death penalty is good or bad or right or wrong, but a problem of whether or not executing innocent people is right or wrong.
SMERCONISH: Heidi...
(CROSSTALK)
SMERCONISH: ... the answer to your question is...
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: ... Michael... SMERCONISH: The answer to your question is does this thing have legs and the answer is, no it doesn't. Look in California a week, two weeks ago Westerfield is sentenced to die. The whole country says that if you take a 7-year-old out of her bed and you murder her after raping her, you should die.
The sniper case, it's being tried in Virginia because Americans want those two guys, if they're guilty, put down like the dogs that they are. And so the bottom line is the country wants it, fix the system, don't go throwing it out.
COLLINS: All right...
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Michael Smerconish and Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, we are going to have to call it quits. We do thank you so much...
SMERCONISH: OK.
COLLINS: ... for being here with us today, though.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Thank you.
SMERCONISH: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
