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CNN Saturday Morning News
Does the Confederate Battle Emblem Have a Place on Georgia's Flag?
Aired January 18, 2003 - 07:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: As you well know, the Civil War ended 138 years ago. But the Confederate battle emblem helped defeat Georgia Governor Ray Barnes (sic) last year when he ran for reelection.
Barnes had pushed through legislation that changed the state flag, greatly reducing the size of the Confederate emblem. The man who defeated him, Sonny Perdue, was sworn in as protesters called for a return to the old flag. Perdue favors a non-binding referendum on the issue.
Forty-one percent of Georgia voters favor the new flag. Twenty- three percent want to return to the old one. And 28 percent want another alternative.
So this morning, joining us are Tyrone Brooks, a member of the Georgia legislature and who played a key role in changing the flag.
And in Savannah, state Senator Eric Johnson, who favors a referendum.
Good morning to you both. We thank you for being here.
TYRONE BROOKS, GEORGIA HOUSE: Good morning.
ERIC JOHNSON, GEORGIA SENATE: Good morning.
COLLINS: Mr. Brooks, I'd like to start with you. Do you see any middle ground on this issue at all?
BROOKS: Well I think the legislature spoke loudly and clearly in January of 2001. Governor Barnes had the courage to sign our legislation on the 31st of January 2001. I think the vast majority of Georgians are very satisfied with the way we dealt with the issue very civilly. We are not a South Carolina, we're not a Mississippi. Our reputation is in tact.
So I'm confident that what we've done the people support. There's no need to revisit this issue.
COLLINS: Mr. Johnson, do you agree?
JOHNSON: No I don't. I think the people were left out of the decision. This is a critical symbol for the people of Georgia. It hangs in every courtroom and every schoolhouse.
It's not like the state bird, which is the thrasher, or the state food, which is grits. The state flag is important to the people of Georgia.
COLLINS: And sir, I want to make it clear I think that I understand that you are in favor of the people choosing not necessarily of bringing back the Confederate flag. Is that right?
JOHNSON: Well I'm not sure that they technically choose by a referendum, but they can be involved in the process. They were completely ignored in a sneak attack with a four-hour window two years ago. And what we all were trying to do was involve the people of Georgia in the decision-making process of what the most important symbol of their state is.
COLLINS: Let's talk about that for a moment. Mr. Brooks, can you fill us in a little bit on the history of how this all went down?
BROOKS: My colleague, Eric Johnson up in Savannah, is not being absolutely true with you. For almost 20 years I carried the legislation to change the flag. We had debates around the state to change the flag. We had forums, we had interviews, we did CNN.
We were all over Georgia for almost 20 years debating the issue. We finally brought it to the legislature for a debate, and for a committee action, and for legislative action in January of 2001. We had almost 20 years of debate on this issue, so the people have been involved.
We make the law. You know Georgia is a republic form of government. The people have delegated lawmaking to the legislators. Those of us who were elected by the people are charged with the responsibility to make law.
We are not a referenda state. We don't make law by referendum.
COLLINS: So Mr. Brooks, you are saying that the people have already voted.
BROOKS: The people have voted by electing their legislators to come to the capital to make law. We're not a referendum city (ph). We're going to open the door on referendum. Let's put the budget out there and let the people vote on the budget.
Let's let the people respond to Governor Perdue's call for tax increases. Let's have the budget floating around the state. Let's deal with education and referenda. Let's go to the environment on referendum. Let's go to gridlock, transportation.
If we're going to open the door on referendum, let's put all of the issues that we have to vote on before the people. The people have spoken through us.
COLLINS: Mr. Johnson, do you think that's a fair representative -- or representation of the people? JOHNSON: Well, my friend Mr. Brooks knows that the flag that's presently flying over the state of Georgia was not seen by the people of this state until after it had passed the House. They woke up the next morning after a sneak attack on this issue. They want to be involved.
Now whether the flag changes, whether it goes back to the flag with the battle symbol on it, or whether it goes back to the pre-'56 flag, I don't know. But the people of Georgia were ignored when the ramrod situation occurs. And that has made this even more divisive then the old flag, and it's something that we are trying to deal with.
BROOKS: In 1956, the people did not vote on the flag. The legislature convened under the leadership of Marvin Griffin. The legislature, all male, all white, voted to change the flag. The people never saw the flag.
JOHNSON: And all Democrat.
BROOKS: And all Democrats. But all male and all white, and the people never had a chance to vote on the flag in 1956. The flag was changed for all the wrong reasons in 1956. It was changed for all the right reasons in 2001.
COLLINS: Let's talk about a side issue just for a moment. Obviously a very emotional heeded debate that's been going on for quite some time in the state of Georgia. There also could be something to talk about economically, if you would agree.
I'm learning that there are some possibilities of major events pulling out of the state of Georgia, actually in Atlanta. NCAA championships in 2007 -- the men's final (UNINTELLIGIBLE) championship is going to be here; considering pulling out because of the flag issue. I'd like to hear from both of you on that.
BROOKS: Well I think Savannah would be hurt equally as bad as Atlanta if we ever went to economic sanctions and boycotts. And I don't want that to happen. I work hard.
This is my home state, by the way. I was born in Warren County, Georgia.
I have family all across this state who own businesses, even in Atlanta. So I don't want that to come. I want Georgia to continue to move forward. I want us to continue to attract the Olympics and, you know, bring the Super Bowls back and NCAA tournaments.
I want Georgia to continue to grow. I don't want to see any harm come to Georgia. But I do know that if we ever fly the old Confederate flag again, many businesses will not come to Georgia; many will leave Georgia. And we will have the scar on us, as a Mississippi or South Carolina, and that's not good.
We are a very progressive state. And I want to see my home state continue to move forward and not go backwards.
COLLINS: Senator Johnson?
JOHNSON: Representative Brooks continues to do a lot of threats and boycotts and blackmail that the people of Georgia don't like. The truth of the matter is that even if we proceed with this process on involving the people of Georgia, they may elect to keep the present flag, they may elect to go pack to the pre-'56 flag. Only if we try to raise the banner that has the St. Andrews cross on it would there become a potential for an economic boycott.
So everybody is making all of these wild assumptions and I don't think they're there. In fact, I have publicly predicted that I don't think the old battle flag is going to ever be hoisted up again.
BROOKS: Yes.
JOHNSON: We don't play "Dixie" at football games anymore. You know that's gone and the old symbol is gone. But that doesn't mean we can't bring the people of Georgia back in to decide whether or not they want to keep the present flag or return to something else, which would presumptively still involve the legislature and its proper role in designing what the different flags should be.
COLLINS: All right. I'm sorry, that's going to have to be the last word on that, sir.
BROOKS: Would you be willing to let the people vote on the governor's tax increase?
COLLINS: Mr. Brooks, I'm sorry. That's going to have to be the last word. We do appreciate the time from both of you.
Tyrone Brooks, here at CNN Center, and state Senator Eric Johnson coming to us from Savannah. Thank you both.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Georgia's Flag?>
Aired January 18, 2003 - 07:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: As you well know, the Civil War ended 138 years ago. But the Confederate battle emblem helped defeat Georgia Governor Ray Barnes (sic) last year when he ran for reelection.
Barnes had pushed through legislation that changed the state flag, greatly reducing the size of the Confederate emblem. The man who defeated him, Sonny Perdue, was sworn in as protesters called for a return to the old flag. Perdue favors a non-binding referendum on the issue.
Forty-one percent of Georgia voters favor the new flag. Twenty- three percent want to return to the old one. And 28 percent want another alternative.
So this morning, joining us are Tyrone Brooks, a member of the Georgia legislature and who played a key role in changing the flag.
And in Savannah, state Senator Eric Johnson, who favors a referendum.
Good morning to you both. We thank you for being here.
TYRONE BROOKS, GEORGIA HOUSE: Good morning.
ERIC JOHNSON, GEORGIA SENATE: Good morning.
COLLINS: Mr. Brooks, I'd like to start with you. Do you see any middle ground on this issue at all?
BROOKS: Well I think the legislature spoke loudly and clearly in January of 2001. Governor Barnes had the courage to sign our legislation on the 31st of January 2001. I think the vast majority of Georgians are very satisfied with the way we dealt with the issue very civilly. We are not a South Carolina, we're not a Mississippi. Our reputation is in tact.
So I'm confident that what we've done the people support. There's no need to revisit this issue.
COLLINS: Mr. Johnson, do you agree?
JOHNSON: No I don't. I think the people were left out of the decision. This is a critical symbol for the people of Georgia. It hangs in every courtroom and every schoolhouse.
It's not like the state bird, which is the thrasher, or the state food, which is grits. The state flag is important to the people of Georgia.
COLLINS: And sir, I want to make it clear I think that I understand that you are in favor of the people choosing not necessarily of bringing back the Confederate flag. Is that right?
JOHNSON: Well I'm not sure that they technically choose by a referendum, but they can be involved in the process. They were completely ignored in a sneak attack with a four-hour window two years ago. And what we all were trying to do was involve the people of Georgia in the decision-making process of what the most important symbol of their state is.
COLLINS: Let's talk about that for a moment. Mr. Brooks, can you fill us in a little bit on the history of how this all went down?
BROOKS: My colleague, Eric Johnson up in Savannah, is not being absolutely true with you. For almost 20 years I carried the legislation to change the flag. We had debates around the state to change the flag. We had forums, we had interviews, we did CNN.
We were all over Georgia for almost 20 years debating the issue. We finally brought it to the legislature for a debate, and for a committee action, and for legislative action in January of 2001. We had almost 20 years of debate on this issue, so the people have been involved.
We make the law. You know Georgia is a republic form of government. The people have delegated lawmaking to the legislators. Those of us who were elected by the people are charged with the responsibility to make law.
We are not a referenda state. We don't make law by referendum.
COLLINS: So Mr. Brooks, you are saying that the people have already voted.
BROOKS: The people have voted by electing their legislators to come to the capital to make law. We're not a referendum city (ph). We're going to open the door on referendum. Let's put the budget out there and let the people vote on the budget.
Let's let the people respond to Governor Perdue's call for tax increases. Let's have the budget floating around the state. Let's deal with education and referenda. Let's go to the environment on referendum. Let's go to gridlock, transportation.
If we're going to open the door on referendum, let's put all of the issues that we have to vote on before the people. The people have spoken through us.
COLLINS: Mr. Johnson, do you think that's a fair representative -- or representation of the people? JOHNSON: Well, my friend Mr. Brooks knows that the flag that's presently flying over the state of Georgia was not seen by the people of this state until after it had passed the House. They woke up the next morning after a sneak attack on this issue. They want to be involved.
Now whether the flag changes, whether it goes back to the flag with the battle symbol on it, or whether it goes back to the pre-'56 flag, I don't know. But the people of Georgia were ignored when the ramrod situation occurs. And that has made this even more divisive then the old flag, and it's something that we are trying to deal with.
BROOKS: In 1956, the people did not vote on the flag. The legislature convened under the leadership of Marvin Griffin. The legislature, all male, all white, voted to change the flag. The people never saw the flag.
JOHNSON: And all Democrat.
BROOKS: And all Democrats. But all male and all white, and the people never had a chance to vote on the flag in 1956. The flag was changed for all the wrong reasons in 1956. It was changed for all the right reasons in 2001.
COLLINS: Let's talk about a side issue just for a moment. Obviously a very emotional heeded debate that's been going on for quite some time in the state of Georgia. There also could be something to talk about economically, if you would agree.
I'm learning that there are some possibilities of major events pulling out of the state of Georgia, actually in Atlanta. NCAA championships in 2007 -- the men's final (UNINTELLIGIBLE) championship is going to be here; considering pulling out because of the flag issue. I'd like to hear from both of you on that.
BROOKS: Well I think Savannah would be hurt equally as bad as Atlanta if we ever went to economic sanctions and boycotts. And I don't want that to happen. I work hard.
This is my home state, by the way. I was born in Warren County, Georgia.
I have family all across this state who own businesses, even in Atlanta. So I don't want that to come. I want Georgia to continue to move forward. I want us to continue to attract the Olympics and, you know, bring the Super Bowls back and NCAA tournaments.
I want Georgia to continue to grow. I don't want to see any harm come to Georgia. But I do know that if we ever fly the old Confederate flag again, many businesses will not come to Georgia; many will leave Georgia. And we will have the scar on us, as a Mississippi or South Carolina, and that's not good.
We are a very progressive state. And I want to see my home state continue to move forward and not go backwards.
COLLINS: Senator Johnson?
JOHNSON: Representative Brooks continues to do a lot of threats and boycotts and blackmail that the people of Georgia don't like. The truth of the matter is that even if we proceed with this process on involving the people of Georgia, they may elect to keep the present flag, they may elect to go pack to the pre-'56 flag. Only if we try to raise the banner that has the St. Andrews cross on it would there become a potential for an economic boycott.
So everybody is making all of these wild assumptions and I don't think they're there. In fact, I have publicly predicted that I don't think the old battle flag is going to ever be hoisted up again.
BROOKS: Yes.
JOHNSON: We don't play "Dixie" at football games anymore. You know that's gone and the old symbol is gone. But that doesn't mean we can't bring the people of Georgia back in to decide whether or not they want to keep the present flag or return to something else, which would presumptively still involve the legislature and its proper role in designing what the different flags should be.
COLLINS: All right. I'm sorry, that's going to have to be the last word on that, sir.
BROOKS: Would you be willing to let the people vote on the governor's tax increase?
COLLINS: Mr. Brooks, I'm sorry. That's going to have to be the last word. We do appreciate the time from both of you.
Tyrone Brooks, here at CNN Center, and state Senator Eric Johnson coming to us from Savannah. Thank you both.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Georgia's Flag?>
