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CNN Saturday Morning News

Interview With Ariel Cohen, Mark Perry

Aired June 14, 2003 - 09:36   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: We've been talking this morning about efforts to get the Mideast peace process back on track following a series of violent detours. After a week of deadly attacks and reprisals, some are asking if the road map to peace is still a viable plan.
For some insight now this morning, we turn to two guests. Ariel Cohen, a research fellow at the Heritage Foundation. Good morning to you, sir, thanks for being here.

ARIEL COHEN, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Good morning.

COLLINS: And Mark Perry is Washington editor of "The Palestine Report" and vice president of Jefferson Waterman International. Thank you as well for being with us.

MARK PERRY, JEFFERSON WATERMAN INTERNATIONAL: Good morning, good morning.

COLLINS: So let's get right to it. Is this Middle East road map to peace a dead issue?

Go ahead and start, if you would please, Mark.

PERRY: Not at all. I think it's in the interests of everyone, Israeli, Palestinians, Americans, to go forward with this. It's been a bloody week, but it's been, in a way, a very highly choreographed week.

If we go back to Aqaba, where Mahmoud Abbas calls for an end to all attacks against Israelis, Hamas disagrees, hits four Israeli soldiers. Sharon thinks that's stepping over the line. He hits back in a way that he never has before, targeting Rantisi. Then the bus bomb. Then the piling-on.

We've had a spasm of violence, but now everyone's drawing back, and I think it's possible to go forward from here.

COLLINS: Now, Mark, let me just follow up real quickly with you. Has -- do you think that your opinion on this has changed a little bit? I know that you interviewed with Anderson Cooper just a few nights ago, and you were saying to him that you did think that the peace process really had hit a bump. In fact, more than a bump, and possibly there wasn't any hope.

PERRY: Yes. I have changed my mind. I went through yesterday the chronology of events over the last week. And it seemed to me that both sides were involved in a delicate dance of sorts, a political dance. And then last night, we heard out of Israel that there are going to be talks, and ongoing talks, in the week ahead.

So I think that both sides have made a good decision. They've stepped back. I think there has been a little American pressure, and it's possible now to go forward, albeit very tentatively.

COLLINS: Ariel, what do you think about the pressure that is being put on (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

COHEN: I'm more pessimistic. I believe that what is an attempt of yet another round of peace process is being bled dry by Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization on the U.S. terrorism list, supported, unfortunately, by Arab countries such as Syria and Saudi Arabia, or people in those countries, and by Iran.

These people don't want peace, and unfortunately, the Palestinian Authority, Abu Mazen, the prime minister, and Yasser Arafat are doing nothing to stop Hamas, to disarm Hamas. Abu Mazen is talking about signing a truce. You don't sign a truce with terrorists. You eliminate terrorists. That's exactly what we did in Afghanistan. That's what we're doing with al Qaeda. That's what Israelis are doing with Hamas.

And until such time as people will not stop blowing up buses with women and children, the peace is just, you know...

COLLINS: But Ariel, isn't it even more complicated than that, in that there are also Palestinian people who are not members of Hamas that we're talking about here? Talk to us, if you would, a little bit about how Hamas positions itself within the Palestinian community. These people see Hamas as a legitimate organization.

COHEN: Well, these people do not see Hamas as a legitimate organization, and we don't see Hamas as a legitimate organization, no more than we saw Taliban as a legitimate organization. Hamas is a militant wing of the Islamic Brotherhood Hamas, calls for jihad until every single Jew in Israel is murdered and until the state of Israel is eliminated from the map.

This is not legitimacy, this is not somebody U.S. should do business with. And Hamas is also calling for jihad against the United States. It's in their charter. So...

COLLINS: But let me be clear. What I'm asking you is, the Palestinian people, because of the charitable organizations that Hamas has opened up to the people, aren't the people sometimes looking at Hamas as, hey, you know, you guys were the ones who actually did deliver some of the need we have been wanting? Isn't that confusing to the Palestinian people?

COHEN: Yes, in comparison with the corruption of the Palestinian Authority, Hamas may be delivering it, but they're cynically exploiting the difficulties of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, because instead of pursuing peace, having economic development, having foreign investment, Hamas is recruiting from exactly the same hospitals it's building. It's hiding weapons in the kindergartens, in the playgrounds of their building.

This is a cynical exploitation of the Palestinian people, and their plight is brainwashing for jihad...

COLLINS: All right...

COHEN: ... day in and day out in the schools funded by Hamas.

COLLINS: Mark Perry, I'm going to have to let you comment here. Is Hamas the end-all, be-all problem in all of this?

PERRY: I don't think so. And I think what we heard is a very simplistic view of Hamas. Hamas was founded in '84, nurtured during the first intifada while Israel stood by and allowed it to be nurtured, because it provided a counterpoint to the radical Palestinians in Tunis. They gained a lot of strength.

Let's not kid ourselves. This is a nationalist movement that cloaks itself in Islam. Yes, I agree, they use terrorism. They involve themselves in terroristic activities. But the Palestinian people look at them as legitimate.

And let's not kid ourselves. The Israelis are very practical and very political. They talk to Hamas all the time. And they know Hamas very, very well. They've lived with them for many years. Let's not be simplistic. This isn't al Qaeda. Yes, what happened this week is terrible. Yes, it is terrorism.

But we're going to need a much more sophisticated response than just dropping bombs on terrorism. We're going to have to use a lot of other tools, especially in this case.

COHEN: Well, Mark, we're not (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

COLLINS: Gentlemen, unfortunately, we are going to have to leave it there. I do apologize for being out of time. It's certainly the issue that everyone is talking about, and indeed the world is very concerned about at this time.

Ariel Cohen, research fellow at the Heritage Foundation, thank you for your time this morning. And Mark Perry, Washington editor of "The "Palestine Report."

Thanks so much, gentlemen.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired June 14, 2003 - 09:36   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: We've been talking this morning about efforts to get the Mideast peace process back on track following a series of violent detours. After a week of deadly attacks and reprisals, some are asking if the road map to peace is still a viable plan.
For some insight now this morning, we turn to two guests. Ariel Cohen, a research fellow at the Heritage Foundation. Good morning to you, sir, thanks for being here.

ARIEL COHEN, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Good morning.

COLLINS: And Mark Perry is Washington editor of "The Palestine Report" and vice president of Jefferson Waterman International. Thank you as well for being with us.

MARK PERRY, JEFFERSON WATERMAN INTERNATIONAL: Good morning, good morning.

COLLINS: So let's get right to it. Is this Middle East road map to peace a dead issue?

Go ahead and start, if you would please, Mark.

PERRY: Not at all. I think it's in the interests of everyone, Israeli, Palestinians, Americans, to go forward with this. It's been a bloody week, but it's been, in a way, a very highly choreographed week.

If we go back to Aqaba, where Mahmoud Abbas calls for an end to all attacks against Israelis, Hamas disagrees, hits four Israeli soldiers. Sharon thinks that's stepping over the line. He hits back in a way that he never has before, targeting Rantisi. Then the bus bomb. Then the piling-on.

We've had a spasm of violence, but now everyone's drawing back, and I think it's possible to go forward from here.

COLLINS: Now, Mark, let me just follow up real quickly with you. Has -- do you think that your opinion on this has changed a little bit? I know that you interviewed with Anderson Cooper just a few nights ago, and you were saying to him that you did think that the peace process really had hit a bump. In fact, more than a bump, and possibly there wasn't any hope.

PERRY: Yes. I have changed my mind. I went through yesterday the chronology of events over the last week. And it seemed to me that both sides were involved in a delicate dance of sorts, a political dance. And then last night, we heard out of Israel that there are going to be talks, and ongoing talks, in the week ahead.

So I think that both sides have made a good decision. They've stepped back. I think there has been a little American pressure, and it's possible now to go forward, albeit very tentatively.

COLLINS: Ariel, what do you think about the pressure that is being put on (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

COHEN: I'm more pessimistic. I believe that what is an attempt of yet another round of peace process is being bled dry by Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization on the U.S. terrorism list, supported, unfortunately, by Arab countries such as Syria and Saudi Arabia, or people in those countries, and by Iran.

These people don't want peace, and unfortunately, the Palestinian Authority, Abu Mazen, the prime minister, and Yasser Arafat are doing nothing to stop Hamas, to disarm Hamas. Abu Mazen is talking about signing a truce. You don't sign a truce with terrorists. You eliminate terrorists. That's exactly what we did in Afghanistan. That's what we're doing with al Qaeda. That's what Israelis are doing with Hamas.

And until such time as people will not stop blowing up buses with women and children, the peace is just, you know...

COLLINS: But Ariel, isn't it even more complicated than that, in that there are also Palestinian people who are not members of Hamas that we're talking about here? Talk to us, if you would, a little bit about how Hamas positions itself within the Palestinian community. These people see Hamas as a legitimate organization.

COHEN: Well, these people do not see Hamas as a legitimate organization, and we don't see Hamas as a legitimate organization, no more than we saw Taliban as a legitimate organization. Hamas is a militant wing of the Islamic Brotherhood Hamas, calls for jihad until every single Jew in Israel is murdered and until the state of Israel is eliminated from the map.

This is not legitimacy, this is not somebody U.S. should do business with. And Hamas is also calling for jihad against the United States. It's in their charter. So...

COLLINS: But let me be clear. What I'm asking you is, the Palestinian people, because of the charitable organizations that Hamas has opened up to the people, aren't the people sometimes looking at Hamas as, hey, you know, you guys were the ones who actually did deliver some of the need we have been wanting? Isn't that confusing to the Palestinian people?

COHEN: Yes, in comparison with the corruption of the Palestinian Authority, Hamas may be delivering it, but they're cynically exploiting the difficulties of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, because instead of pursuing peace, having economic development, having foreign investment, Hamas is recruiting from exactly the same hospitals it's building. It's hiding weapons in the kindergartens, in the playgrounds of their building.

This is a cynical exploitation of the Palestinian people, and their plight is brainwashing for jihad...

COLLINS: All right...

COHEN: ... day in and day out in the schools funded by Hamas.

COLLINS: Mark Perry, I'm going to have to let you comment here. Is Hamas the end-all, be-all problem in all of this?

PERRY: I don't think so. And I think what we heard is a very simplistic view of Hamas. Hamas was founded in '84, nurtured during the first intifada while Israel stood by and allowed it to be nurtured, because it provided a counterpoint to the radical Palestinians in Tunis. They gained a lot of strength.

Let's not kid ourselves. This is a nationalist movement that cloaks itself in Islam. Yes, I agree, they use terrorism. They involve themselves in terroristic activities. But the Palestinian people look at them as legitimate.

And let's not kid ourselves. The Israelis are very practical and very political. They talk to Hamas all the time. And they know Hamas very, very well. They've lived with them for many years. Let's not be simplistic. This isn't al Qaeda. Yes, what happened this week is terrible. Yes, it is terrorism.

But we're going to need a much more sophisticated response than just dropping bombs on terrorism. We're going to have to use a lot of other tools, especially in this case.

COHEN: Well, Mark, we're not (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

COLLINS: Gentlemen, unfortunately, we are going to have to leave it there. I do apologize for being out of time. It's certainly the issue that everyone is talking about, and indeed the world is very concerned about at this time.

Ariel Cohen, research fellow at the Heritage Foundation, thank you for your time this morning. And Mark Perry, Washington editor of "The "Palestine Report."

Thanks so much, gentlemen.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com